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Boarding a train without a ticket - really illegal?

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Mintona

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Grove Park - Bromley North. It is a penalty fares area yorkie, but not a CTA. Doesn't help itself by the fact there are no conductors on the trains, only guards, and no barriers - it almost invites people on!

From next week all lines on Southeastern will be penalty fare areas, PERTIS machines have been installed at all stations along the Sheerness branch and Strood - Paddock Wood. However, there are no Compulsory Ticket Areas on any part of the Southeastern network, so don't worry about Byelaw 17, it's Byelaw 18 you'll be caught on.

If you do feel a penalty fare was unfare (see what I did) then use the appeals process. That is what it is there for.
 
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nedchester

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How do you think all those bashers in the 1980s etc used to get around the country when they didn't work for the railway?? Well I can tell you they didn't spend very much money!!! And yes some got caught.

What I am trying to say is that many on here seem to have a superiority complex when it comes to fare evasion but in reality I suspect that upwards of 90% of enthusiasts (and this is an enthusiasts forum) have done it. Sorry but it's true.

However, that doesn't mean that all passengers without a ticket should be treated as criminals or are criminals. It is ridiculous comparing stealing a car with avoiding a train fare.
 

43034 The Black Horse

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What I am trying to say is that many on here seem to have a superiority complex when it comes to fare evasion but in reality I suspect that upwards of 90% of enthusiasts (and this is an enthusiasts forum) have done it. Sorry but it's true.

You mean a Freedom Of South West isn't valid in Scotland? ;)
 

Failed Unit

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I must say that there are a lot of 'paragons of virtue' on this thread.

Now who here has ever made a train journey and not paid for it (either intentionally or not???)

I suspect most on here have at some point.............

(I haven't said it's right just making an observation)

The longest journey I have done was New Southgate - Newark without paying.

At New Southgate I got a 10p permit as that was all I could do.
At Finsbury the ticket office was closed so i couldn't exchange the permit.
No staff on train between Finsbury and Peterborough
Couldn't find the gaurd between Peterborough and Newark.
Next train was Newark - Market Rasen, the gaurd on that said he was only interested in charging me for the bit on "his" train.

Did I feel guilty? No, I had tried my best to pay but the TOC was not interested in collecting my money. I am sure if I had found the gaurd between Peterborough and Newark they would have only charged me Peterborough - Market Rasen.
 

Greenback

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I once had a free trip from Norwich to Sheringham! My friend and I wanted to go to Cambridge for a day out really, but there were problems on that line and a lot of unhappy people in the queue at Norwich travel centre as I think the Cambridge services had more or less been abandoned. We were about to go back home when we spotted that the Sheringham train was going in a couple of minutes, so we decided to go to the seaside instead! When the conductor came round and I tried to buy a Priv return and a normal one, he saw my priv card and wouldn't let me pay for either ticket! (we ended up coming back on the bus from Cromer). So, technically we were breaking the law, but what should we have done? The next Sheringham train was in 2 hours IIRC! In the circumstances, I thnk we were justified in getting on, and we were not trying to evade any fare. That's the only time I haven't paid, though!
 

jopsuk

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Like most in here, I've never deliberately evaded a fare, but have made entire journeys without paying in penalty fare areas thanks to combinations of lack of open ticket offices, broken ticket machines (once, I had a card swallowed for no good reason as I tried to pay) and no ticket check.

Here's one: if you come to the end of such a journey, and the ticket barriers at the station are locked open (or there are no barriers) but the ticket office is still open- would anyone here feel morally obliged to purchase a ticket for the journey they've just made?
 

furryfeet

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There are many reasons for boarding a train without a ticket.
I would also add the following:-
guard on the train from your local unstaffed station does not come round, or he has no working ticket machine.

One then changes onto another train (train B ) at a station with an open booking office.
Where does one stand on train B when asked for a ticket ?
I would have thought that one is not evading payment, since there were no ticket facilities where one started the journey.
 

Greenback

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I would also add the following:-
guard on the train from your local unstaffed station does not come round, or he has no working ticket machine.

One then changes onto another train (train B ) at a station with an open booking office.
Where does one stand on train B when asked for a ticket ?
I would have thought that one is not evading payment, since there were no ticket facilities where one started the journey.

This happened to me on the Cambrian Coast some years ago. I boarded at Harlech and the conductor came through saying that his ticket machine was not working and that everyone could have a complimentary trip today! I was going to Birmingham, and on the next train from machynlleth I simply asked for a ticket from Harlech and got one! I probably wasn't the only person, and the second conductor was probably aware of the machine issues, but anyonemaking a local journey along the whole line would have travelled for nothing (unless of course they were going back, in which case they ould have only saved 10p!)

There were no ticket purchase facilities at any of the CC stations, though, so we might have gone a little off topic here!
 

yorkie

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Where does one stand on train B when asked for a ticket ?
Depends on how long the connection was. They can't say you should miss a train, but if you had, say, half an hour wait then it could be argued you had an opportunity to buy in that time. If it's, say, 5 minutes then no way should anyone be expected to risk that. 10 minutes? 15 minutes? well it depends on queues, size of stations etc.
 

Greenback

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The connection I had at Machynlleth was about five minutes - no one could have expected people to cross the platforms and go to the one window booking office for a ticket in that time! As Yorkie says, there is no 'right' answer!
 

Failed Unit

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The connection I had at Machynlleth was about five minutes - no one could have expected people to cross the platforms and go to the one window booking office for a ticket in that time! As Yorkie says, there is no 'right' answer!

I guess if you missed the connection in this case you would have had a long wait as well.

It is a grey area at Newark NorthGate if I have a 10 minute connection (or less) I won't even think about crossing the bridge to see what the queue is like, unless the next train to my destination is no more than 15 minutes after the one I would have missed.

At least with the barriers coming along, I can argue that I couldn't have got on the station in the first place without a ticket!
 

Greenback

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Yes, two hours wait for the next Birmingham service! Although, now I think about it, it was dark so must have been after the booking office had closed anyway! I still wouldn't have attempted it if it had been open - ultimately, it's not my fault, or my problem if the ticket machine is broken and I would not have been happy if there was any suggestion that I should have been inconvenienced as a result!
 

janb

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I strongly disagree. If someone boards a train and is prepared to pay on board then that is, in no way, an attempt to fare evade.

How many people board a train and seek out the guard to pay? Not many I can tell you, most people I see sit hiding hoping he doesn't come down.

Also, what guarantee do you have the guard will have a functioning ticket machine?

The courts would laugh at such a suggestion! I have done that myself, a good reason is if I am taking a bike and I don't know if I will get it on. Why the hell should I pay for a ticket I may be unable to use if I can't get it on?

The people I'm talking about don't have bikes. In your scenario I would be quite happy to sell you a ticket, and if you couldn't get on you could bring it back and I'd happily non-issue it. I accept not all stations may be as helpful, in which case if you seek out the guard I see nothing wrong with what you say. However if the only people walking past were those with bikes I'd be perfectly happy.

I recall a few years ago, when waiting to collect my bike from a DVT (so the rear of FC), a (obviously wealthy) passenger saying how she always buys her £200+ FORs from the guard as she wants the guards to get as much commission as possible (rather than it just going to the company) as that's £10 for the guard, the person she was talking to was either a guard or a customer service assistant, not sure which, but was appreciative.

Well thats good for the guard, not so good for the booking office staff that lose their jobs when it closes.


choice to make and if they want to pay a higher price, then let them but don't accuse them of evading if they ask for a ticket!

Most people don't ask for a ticket though, thats the point. Or at least only when they know they aren't going to get away with it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There are many reasons for boarding a train without a ticket.

1. Big queue at the ticket office.

I don't know about darn sarth, but the stations I'm talking about rarely have big queues, and anyone arriving appropriately early for their train gets served. Certainly I've never had a problem.

2. Checking to see if there's spare seats on the train

Presumably only applicable to leisure journeys, if you have to make a journey, you have to make it, seat or not. A ticket does not mean a seat after all. As I said to Yorkie, if a train is too busy to board, I would non-issue tickets, although perhaps not all stations are as helpful.

4. Not having time to buy a ticket when needing to buy 2 tickets for a journey

Not sure how buying 2 tickets takes longer than 1 when buying walk up fares.
 

87015

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How many people board a train and seek out the guard to pay? Not many I can tell you, most people I see sit hiding hoping he doesn't come down.

Also, what guarantee do you have the guard will have a functioning ticket machine?

Well they are clearly TOC issues. Most businesses that take your money tend to actually come and get it and even help you spend it. I've not been in many restaurants that close up the tills and have all the staff go home after 1900. Why should you have to seek out the guard, its in his job description to do revenue.

Not sure how buying 2 tickets takes longer than 1 when buying walk up fares.
Half the time anything more complicated than a return two stops down the line is too complicated for ticket bert and takes an age, if indeed he doesn't just say its too difficult (or, "can't do that here mate") and send you packing.
 

janb

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Here's one: if you come to the end of such a journey, and the ticket barriers at the station are locked open (or there are no barriers) but the ticket office is still open- would anyone here feel morally obliged to purchase a ticket for the journey they've just made?

We have people that do that from a small unstaffed station just up the line, but thats because they want the powers to be to know people are using that station and not have reduction of services/closure.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Why should you have to seek out the guard, its in his job description to do revenue.

I believe a guard recently posted on here that it is only third on the list of priorities. Anyway it is his job to check that the customers have obeyed the rules of the railway and have bought before they boarded, and have valid tickets. Not to be selling right, left, and centre.

Half the time anything more complicated than a return two stops down the line is too complicated for ticket bert and takes an age, if indeed he doesn't just say its too difficult (or, "can't do that here mate") and send you packing.

Perhaps that is a training/knowledge issue with those staff, and perhaps could be raised politely with the TOC. Anyway, if you try and fail at the booking office, at least you can say you tried.
 

Daniel

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Needless to say, I'll never fare evade again on Heathrow Express, but if it's just the odd London Underground trip or something, I will.

May I ask how you intend to do that, considering all LU stations have ticket barriers?

Do you just vault the gates?
 

yorkie

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Barriers are often wide open in evenings when they are needed most!:roll:
 

nedchester

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and we all know what happens when you jump the gates on the underground don't we......?!
 

yorkie

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and we all know what happens when you jump the gates on the underground don't we......?!
People who jump barriers have been known to murder an innocent person, claim that the innocent person jumped barriers, and escape being found guilty because, well... no real reason, just because they're special and can therefore get away with lying and murdering.
 

Daniel

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Barriers are often wide open in evenings when they are needed most!:roll:

Indeed, I know this particularly a problem on ex-Silverlink stations, where contracted staff wear out uniforms...

...but anyway, what 'bengley' is describing is still fare evading even if the gates are open. Just because the gates are open doesn't mean you aren't entering a penalty fare area - the stickers on the (open or closed) gates re-enforce this fact.
I'd be interested to see how 'bengley' evades payment of his/her fare, (and also, where he travels from/to).
 

yorkie

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...but anyway, what 'bengley' is describing is still fare evading even if the gates are open.
He doesn't deny that, and I don't think anyone is agreeing with it.
Just because the gates are open doesn't mean you aren't entering a penalty fare area - the stickers on the (open or closed) gates re-enforce this fact.
I'd be interested to see how 'bengley' evades payment of his/her fare, (and also, where he travels from/to).
He has revealed his location on his profile and this is displayed to the left of all his posts, under his username.
 

evil_hippo

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I've also found that one of my local stations fairly frequently has the ticket office unmanned whilst staff perform other duties. Maybe the guards don't want to have the argument about it?

I can confirm this with my experience of Appleby. If you arrived less than five minutes or so before departure, the station master would be preparing to dispatch the train, and 100% of the time the conductor would accept this and sell a discounted tickets. Which is entirely fair, as you shouldn't be told "you weren't here five minutes ahead of time, therefore you can't use this train, unless you're willing to put your hand in your pocket".

Sadly, this is all to often what passengers who meet with ticket queues are told, even though it's the TOC's responsibility, not theirs, to staff ticket offices properly! I always feel that on principle, any passenger should be allowed to board a train if that hasn't yet departed the station as long as they've arrived at the station at such a time that it's safe to do so, and they're willing to make themselves known to the conductor straight away, but many parts of the railway don't agree. It's TERRIBLE customer service to demand flustered passengers have to rush to make a transaction at a ticket office while they can see the train they want to catch - you can't miss your car in order to fill it up with petrol.
 

theblackwatch

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People who jump barriers have been known to murder an innocent person, claim that the innocent person jumped barriers, and escape being found guilty because, well... no real reason, just because they're special and can therefore get away with lying and murdering.

Can you prove this claim of yours?
 

yorkie

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Can you prove this claim of yours?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4175432.stm
"He said that on Sunday, July 24, Mr de Menezes' family in the UK, his cousins, were briefed by police that Mr de Menezes did not run into the Tube station, that he used a ticket to get through the Tube station barrier - specifically that he did not vault the barrier - and that he was not wearing a padded jacket or carrying a bag."

It was a lie that
Menezes jumped over barriers. He did not. The people who jumped over the barriers then went on to shoot him seven times.

http://www.laaw.org/shoottokill.htm

"
Jean Charles de Menezes, an innocent Brazilian visitor to London was intentionally shot and killed by police officers at Stockwell Underground Station. This constitutes a crime of murder in English criminal law.

Introducing a ‘shoot to kill’ policy is a crime of conspiracy to murder
De Menezes’ murder resulted from the ‘shoot to kill’ policy adopted by the Metropolitan Police in response to the London bombings which resulted from Tony Blair’s policy to wage war with Iraq. Introducing this ‘shoot to kill’ policy constitutes a crime of ‘conspiracy to murder’.


Aiding or abetting these crimes is a crime of accessory to murder
Any person, including a police officer, who knowingly aids, abets, or assists these crimes becomes an accessory to the crime and commits an offence under the Accessories and Abettors Act 1861. Be warned that co-operation with any person or police officer known or suspected to be aiding or abetting these serious crimes renders a person criminally liable as an accessory to murder and conspiracy to murder."


More evidence is available by searching. It is widely accepted to be a murder by many people. It is your right to disagree, no-one can force you to disagree that it was not a murder, but no-one can force us to believe it wasn't a murder either.
 

evil_hippo

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A few further notes:


- I noted that there was a "ticket selling carriage" on trains in Finland. If, for any of the many valid reasons, you had no ticket, you could sit there and purchase one from the conductor, who would spend 90% of his time in that carriage and only go to the others to check for those needing help/advice or antisocial behaviour, etc. Meanwhile, the equivalent of RPIs inspected the other carriages at random, and issued fines (100 euros as I recall) to those not holding a ticket in any other carriage. While such a system would not directly translate to a British context, sitting in that carriage illustrated the principle of showing willingness to pay for a ticket, and thus not being treated as a criminal, and that's a good principle.


One then changes onto another train (train B ) at a station with an open booking office.
Where does one stand on train B when asked for a ticket ?
I would have thought that one is not evading payment, since there were no ticket facilities where one started the journey.

This is answered by the byelaw wording:

(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey...

Therefore, if there were no facilities at the station where you began your journey, at no point are you in breach of that byelaw. And staff respect this - Whenever I go from Burley Park to Manchester or Sheffield, except on the odd occasion that a guard is working efficiently or RPIs are on board, I purchase that ticket without there ever being any argument on board the connecting train on from Leeds. Few passengers know this, and many panic on arriving at Leeds with no ticket for their onward connection.


How many people board a train and seek out the guard to pay? Not many I can tell you, most people I see sit hiding hoping he doesn't come down.

Me. I do. I do this quite a lot when for legitimate reasons I wasn't able to buy a ticket.

I used to often through-book from Appleby to Glasgow/Edinburgh, but with the introduction of CDRs, splitting at Carlisle became advantageous. The first few times I often forgot I wasn't through-booked until around or just before the time of boarding, and I would go straight to the conductor and ask for a Y-P CDR; they would always oblige without argument.

I traveled from London to Oxford free the other day, but not deliberately. Because of missing a Circle Line train and losing nine minutes waiting for the next, I had the choice between trying to buy a ticket in three minutes risking missing the last fast train to oxford or getting on without a ticket, and I obviously chose the latter. I looked for the conductor, not realising 165s don't necessarily have them! And I rode the rest of the way knowing technically I was breaking a railway byelaw, and feeling VERY uncomfortable about it.

So no, not all of us without tickets are willing criminals, and some of us do make every attempt to pay as soon as possible.
 

yorkie

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...Few passengers know this, and many panic on arriving at Leeds with no ticket for their onward connection.
Welcome back, good to see you posting again :)

I think people panic because there are so many threats made by the rail industry (and some staff) against passengers and always accusing them of being up to no good. Such threats are not made by any other service industry I can think of.

This is why it's so important to know your rights.
 

royaloak

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I would also add the following:-
guard on the train from your local unstaffed station does not come round, or he has no working ticket machine.

One then changes onto another train (train B ) at a station with an open booking office.
Where does one stand on train B when asked for a ticket ?
I would have thought that one is not evading payment, since there were no ticket facilities where one started the journey.

In the first instance YOU should go and find the guard to buy a ticket.
When you arrive at the station with an open ticket YOU should buy the ticket for the complete journey.
You ARE evading the fare because you had opportunity (okay not at the start) to buy a ticket but took the conscious decision not to.
 

yorkie

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Those rules are made up. There is no rule saying that you should go looking for the guard. If there is not enough time to buy a ticket (or if it would be risky doing so) before your next train leaves then no-one can force you to delay your journey in order to buy a ticket.
 

Phoenix

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Hey just like to add my two cents along with a story basically I personally think that boarding a train without a ticket is legal and if train companies feel so strongly about this then they only have one option pull their fingers out and do something about it such as.

Barriers at stations
more facilities
Ticket inspectors doing the rounds fully on every trip

At the end of the day rather than Toc's spouting this piffle about legalities maybe they should protect their revenue by putting a more effective system, obviously this is done and this legal issue is part of their measures (and just to not I havent read this thread all the way through due to its length) but really jumping up and down threating potential customers with legal action isnt going to win them any awards look at buses.......

You get on and pay the fare a simple tailor made process for a particular industry which I assume is 99.9% effective.

Anyway the story ok here goes

Basically I intended to travel from Tamworth to Derby and return but I had to additionally travel to Birmingham new street now I personally seen no point in getting off and buying another ticket so I thought "I will see what XC put in place for me to purchase a ticket" and lowe and behold I had no ticket inspector on my train but........Birmingham new street had a few ticket inspectors on the barriers I explained the situation and they were happy to oblige considering I wanted to pay.

Now can the more cynical of you out there call that fare dodging or illlegal because I would interested if you did.
 

poshbakerloo

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That's the thing I find most annoying

most Northern Conductors on the west side that I have observed, will quite happily sell discounted tickets on the train to passengers boarding at staffed stations

which sends out completely the wrong message

It happens to me all the time. If I'm late I just run for the train as I know it won't cost any more anyway...
 
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