EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Howardh]

It wouldn't leave London in the first place - remember the French checks occur before boarding the train in the UK not after alighting in France.

There's a serious point in there, can't remember which paper mentioned it but if, at the last moment it emerges there is no deal (say 2259.59 on March 29th) there are several flights which have set off from the UK towards the EU (and vice versa) which MAY have to return without landing/fly-over permission. "Cinderella flights" I recall?

Now I'm just quoting what I read, and I don't believe for one minute they couldn't carry on - it would be so absurd by both sides for that not to happen, yet it underlines how important it is to GET a deal and everything signed up - Just In Case.

If there's no deal, yet we still have flights and Eurostar, then something's been signed so there IS a deal even if there isn't one....also to keep things moving the UK may well have to accept whatever the EU offers, which may include a degree of fredom of movement. I just so wish I could watch all this unfold from the outside (and not the 2135 Conair Manchester to Dussledorf flight). Peanuts with your wine, sir?

 

[Howardh]

I have found this in the comments of that article. If it already mentioned here or out of bounce, than please remove it.
Source: Ec.uropa.eu

Quite mind boggling what we've let ourselves in for, huh? Best let a top-notch UK government negotiating team deal with it.

Oh, dear....

 

[AlterEgo]

Of course you don't have one MEP but multiple MEPs who represent your region.

Didn’t know that. Exemplifies the problem.

 

[pemma]

Now I'm just quoting what I read, and I don't believe for one minute they couldn't carry on - it would be so absurd by both sides for that not to happen, yet it underlines how important it is to GET a deal and everything signed up - Just In Case.

Agreed. I can see some German business people being outraged if their scheduled flights to the UK don't operate. However, it's the UK that would be worst hit, we could have all international flights grounded, other countries wouldn't be any more badly affected then they would under industrial action by air traffic controllers in the UK.

 

[Howardh]

Agreed. I can see some German business people being outraged if their scheduled flights to the UK don't operate. However, it's the UK that would be worst hit, we could have all international flights grounded, other countries wouldn't be any more badly affected then they would under industrial action by air traffic controllers in the UK.

That's a point, will ATC "qualifications" for want of another description be accepted by both sides after Brexit?!! Of course they would.....but again, it needs signing up! (Which is a deal...)

 

[pemma]

Didn’t know that. Exemplifies the problem.

You sound like one of the people who complains about the decisions made by the EU parliament but doesn't vote in elections for MEPs. If you did vote you'll notice the ballot paper is unusual compared to for domestic elections - you vote for a party and each party has a list of names under it and the number of seats the party gets for your region depends on the number of votes. The names are also in order so if the party gets one seat the first name on the list gets the seat.

 

[AlterEgo]

You sound like one of the people who complains about the decisions made by the EU parliament but doesn't vote in elections for MEPs. If you did vote you'll notice the ballot paper is unusual compared to for domestic elections - you vote for a party and each party has a list of names under it and the number of seats the party gets for your region depends on the number of votes. The names are also in order so if the party gets one seat the first name on the list gets the seat.

I spoil my ballot paper for all elections and have done for years.

 

[pemma]

I spoil my ballot paper for all elections and have done for years.

So did you do the same in the EU referendum? If not why not, the choice was accept the reforms David Cameron agreed with the EU (in an attempt to please his back benchers) or to leave on terms the government hasn't decided on yet.

 

[Howardh]

I spoil my ballot paper for all elections and have done for years.

My ballot paper's already spoiled before I get it, just look at the names and the partys scrawled all over it

 

[Groningen]

Oh, dear....

You have lost confidence in the handling of the Brexit?!

 

[furnessvale]

That's a point, will ATC "qualifications" for want of another description be accepted by both sides after Brexit?!! Of course they would.....but again, it needs signing up! (Which is a deal...)

AIUI both sides have already said that 90+% of the issues at stake have already been agreed. I'm sure this will include non contentious matters, such as mutual acceptance of driving licences, overflying rights and interworking of trains. If it isn't things like that, then just what does the 90+% represent.

If agreement cannot be reached on the remaining <10%, I am sure a deal will be signed on what has been agreed.

All this talk of no overflying, Eurostar grinding to a halt etc., is simply more project fear in the final push to scare the UK population into submission as agreed between the UK government and the EU.

 

[dosxuk]

There's a serious point in there, can't remember which paper mentioned it but if, at the last moment it emerges there is no deal (say 2259.59 on March 29th) there are several flights which have set off from the UK towards the EU (and vice versa) which MAY have to return without landing/fly-over permission. "Cinderella flights" I recall?

Now I'm just quoting what I read, and I don't believe for one minute they couldn't carry on - it would be so absurd by both sides for that not to happen, yet it underlines how important it is to GET a deal and everything signed up - Just In Case.

The bigger issue with those flights in that situation is not the completing the current flight, but that the aircraft and their crew will no longer be licensed. I'm sure the British based airlines and crew would rather turn back than end up in limbo, stuck on the ground in random airports, with an unclear visa situation.

 

[nlogax]

If agreement cannot be reached on the remaining <10%, I am sure a deal will be signed on what has been agreed.

All this talk of no overflying, Eurostar grinding to a halt etc., is simply more project fear in the final push to scare the UK population into submission as agreed between the UK government and the EU.

Some of this -is- hyperbole and tiresome after a while. It's nearly as tiresome as Leavers trotting out their 'Project Fear' mantra. However, we keeping forgetting A50's core principles. Emphasis mine;

2. Negotiations under Article 50 TEU will be conducted in transparency and as a single package. In accordance with the principle that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, individual items cannot be settled separately. The Union will approach the negotiations with unified positions, and will engage with the United Kingdom exclusively through the channels set out in these guidelines and in the negotiating directives. So as not to undercut the position of the Union, there will be no separate negotiations between individual Member States and the United Kingdom on matters pertaining to the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the Union.

 

[nidave]

They can demand what they like but we don’t have to agree to it. That’s the beauty of being out of the EU.

Awwww thats sweet - the fact you belive you have any say in anything that happens is pure naivety on your part.

 

[AlterEgo]

So did you do the same in the EU referendum? If not why not, the choice was accept the reforms David Cameron agreed with the EU (in an attempt to please his back benchers) or to leave on terms the government hasn't decided on yet.

No, that wasn’t an election.

 

[bramling]

Awwww thats sweet - the fact you belive you have any say in anything that happens is pure naivety on your part.

I think the word you’re looking for is democracy!

Even Margaret Thatcher had to amend her policy on the poll tax, so yes what the electorate thinks can make a difference if enough people feel strongly about an issue. The very fact that UKIP became a serious concern for Cameron is another good example.

 

[pemma]

No, that wasn’t an election.

So why did you vote in the referendum but not in elections?

 

[Howardh]

I think the word you’re looking for is democracy!

Even Margaret Thatcher had to amend her policy on the poll tax, so yes what the electorate thinks can make a difference if enough people feel strongly about an issue. The very fact that UKIP became a serious concern for Cameron is another good example.

Good example, that means we can abandon Brexit if enough people feel strongly...!!

 

[furnessvale]

Some of this -is- hyperbole and tiresome after a while. It's nearly as tiresome as Leavers trotting out their 'Project Fear' mantra. However, we keeping forgetting A50's core principles. Emphasis mine;

2. Negotiations under Article 50 TEU will be conducted in transparency and as a single package. In accordance with the principle that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, individual items cannot be settled separately. The Union will approach the negotiations with unified positions, and will engage with the United Kingdom exclusively through the channels set out in these guidelines and in the negotiating directives. So as not to undercut the position of the Union, there will be no separate negotiations between individual Member States and the United Kingdom on matters pertaining to the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the Union.

Understood, but surely an agreement NOT to have an agreement in certain areas is in itself an agreement.

I am thinking particularly of trade, where the UK could have no agreement with the EU other than WTO.

 

[eotw]

Understood, but surely an agreement NOT to have an agreement in certain areas is in itself an agreement.

I am thinking particularly of trade, where the UK could have no agreement with the EU other than WTO.

Unless the NI border is sorted then No-Deal is a real possibility. Contrary to what many believe the EU is desperate to do a deal but know RoI could veto anything which comprises the GFA. The RoI also want a deal as the economic consequences of no Deal are pretty bad for them, on the other hand a NI hard border could be electoral suicide and have truly tragic consequences.

The risk is we drift to January/February without a deal and suddenly it is to late to ratify it.

 

[bramling]

Good example, that means we can abandon Brexit if enough people feel strongly...!!

I said *if*!

I’m unconvinced there’s been a shift of opinion away from leaving the EU. Everyone I know who voted leave still wants to leave, plus a few who reluctantly voted remain now say they’d vote leave now too. Obviously this is only a random sample, but equally virtually all of these are in the 18-65 age range, so not elderly people.

 

[AlterEgo]

So why did you vote in the referendum but not in elections?

Because in a referendum I can clearly state what I’d like to happen. I don’t buy into party politics and find them mostly destructive and unhelpful.

 

[nidave]

I spoil my ballot paper for all elections and have done for years.

So you have nothing to complain about saying the you have

I think the word you’re looking for is democracy!

Even Margaret Thatcher had to amend her policy on the poll tax, so yes what the electorate thinks can make a difference if enough people feel strongly about an issue. The very fact that UKIP became a serious concern for Cameron is another good example.

So people can change their minds... Good to see you finally admit that.

 

[nidave]

Because in a referendum I can clearly state what I’d like to happen. I don’t buy into party politics and find them mostly destructive and unhelpful.

But you did nothing to change the EU while we were in it. So it's a bit hypocritical of you. Unless you are saying elections don't matter.

 

[bramling]

So you have nothing to complain about saying the you have

So people can change their minds... Good to see you finally admit that.

Yes people change their minds. Try putting ten men round a table deciding on how a work roster is to be laid out!

In the case of something like the EU referendum I’m not convinced there should be scope for changing minds on a whim though - people had ample opportunity to research and reach an informed decision, now it’s time to get on and implement that.

 

[mmh]

But you did nothing to change the EU while we were in it. So it's a bit hypocritical of you. Unless you are saying elections don't matter.

That's a rather large argument in favour of leaving, that it's impossible to change from within, and is quite capable of ever increasing its control without any mandate from the citizens of its members.

It's become a remarkably authoritarian "union of nations" where none of the union can control it.

The only way is to leave it, and hopefully give impetus to other members who feel the same way. That's the real reason leaving is apparently impossible, to deter others from daring to leave.

 

[nidave]

Yes people change their minds. Try putting ten men round a table deciding on how a work roster is to be laid out!

In the case of something like the EU referendum I’m not convinced there should be scope for changing minds on a whim though - people had ample opportunity to research and reach an informed decision, now it’s time to get on and implement that.

Who said it is on a whim- people voted on a whim to stick it to the conservatives - now that we have more information about how disastrous a no deal Brexit will be to most people (this is from people like Rees-Mogg who says people will be worse off for at least 50 years) - I don't call people wanting to change their mind because they will be poorer a whim.. it sounds sensible to me. At least with an election you can change your mind at the next one - this is for a generation.

 

[nidave]

That's a rather large argument in favour of leaving, that it's impossible to change from within, and is quite capable of ever increasing its control without any mandate from the citizens of its members.

It's become a remarkably authoritarian "union of nations" where none of the union can control it.

The only way is to leave it, and hopefully give impetus to other members who feel the same way. That's the real reason leaving is apparently impossible, to deter others from daring to leave.

Is there any actual evidence to back up the claims from these people or is it more "daily mail and Express". Plus the government using the EU as a whipping boy.
I am not saying the EU is perfect but its probably one of the governmental institutions (is that a phrase) currently. Look at the federal goverment in the US for example, look at the UK - we seem to take delight in ****ing up our own lives.

 

[EM2]

That's a rather large argument in favour of leaving, that it's impossible to change from within, and is quite capable of ever increasing its control without any mandate from the citizens of its members.

It's impossible to change it from within, IF you never vote for politicians that have the desire to do so. As it is, we (the UK) have managed to change a number of the tenets of our membership.

 

[bramling]

Who said it is on a whim- people voted on a whim to stick it to the conservatives - now that we have more information about how disastrous a no deal Brexit will be to most people (this is from people like Rees-Mogg who says people will be worse off for at least 50 years) - I don't call people wanting to change their mind because they will be poorer a whim.. it sounds sensible to me. At least with an election you can change your mind at the next one - this is for a generation.

I don’t know anyone who voted leave to stick it to the Conservatives.

Surely anyone voting leave should have been aware that “no deal” may be a possible outcome? I certainly was. I do think the government should have prepared for that from the outset though.