• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Inverness to London journey: Perth to Glasgow train disappeared after booking.

Status
Not open for further replies.

gord

Member
Joined
6 Jul 2011
Messages
139
I booked a ticket for the 2 of us from Inverness to Glasgow back in July to travel on Wednesday 17th October. Got it a very cheap advance price.

This is the route our advanced tickets are for:
Dep: 09:41 Inverness
Arr: 11:56 Perth

Dep : 12:12 Perth
Arr: 13:16 Glasgow Queen St

However, I've just looked at Realtime trains and the national rail booking system and the leg to Perth has disappeared! Realtime trains seems to have the service terminating from Aberdeen instead and ticketing websites are now routing via Haymarket taking over an hour longer. The problem we now have is that we are booked on the 14:40 Virgin train to London Euston from Glasgow Central and this would now turn a connection that was well over an hour into a too tight 20 minute connection.

Any help or advice would be greatly received.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Mag_seven

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
1 Sep 2014
Messages
9,994
Location
here to eternity
the leg to Perth has disappeared!

I think you may mean the leg from Perth i.e. the 12.12 departure? For some reason all trains that originate from Aberdeen that would normally go to Glasgow QS (the 12.12 is one of those services) are terminating at Perth that week.
 

gord

Member
Joined
6 Jul 2011
Messages
139

I think you may mean the leg from Perth i.e. the 12.12 departure? For some reason all trains that originate from Aberdeen that would normally go to Glasgow QS (the 12.12 is one of those services) are terminating at Perth that week.

Yes, that is the leg I mean 12:12 from and not to Perth. My apologies. It severely screws us up after we had booked our tickets. I have just emailed Scotrail about this. Hopefully something can be arranged as we need to be on that 14:40 departure from Glasgow. Seems wrong that they release advance tickets before changing the timetable. There is nothing on the National Rail website about future engineering works.
 

Mag_seven

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
1 Sep 2014
Messages
9,994
Location
here to eternity
For some reason all trains that originate from Aberdeen that would normally go to Glasgow QS (the 12.12 is one of those services) are terminating at Perth that week.

Oddly in the opposite direction all Glasgow QS to Aberdeen services are shown as running normally that week!
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,433
Location
Yorkshire
Any help or advice would be greatly received.
It's unclear what outcome you'd like, so I think we need some more information to be able to advise.

Is your arrival time crucial? If so, are you happy to depart earlier in order to arrive as close to the booked time as possible?

Or would you prefer to depart at/after the originally booked time, arrive late, and claim Delay Repay compensation?

Or would you prefer to obtain a full refund (no admin fee is payable)?
 

gord

Member
Joined
6 Jul 2011
Messages
139
It's unclear what outcome you'd like, so I think we need some more information to be able to advise.

Is your arrival time crucial? If so, are you happy to depart earlier in order to arrive as close to the booked time as possible?

Or would you prefer to depart at the originally booked time, arrive late, and claim Delay Repay compensation?

Or would you prefer to obtain a full refund (no admin fee is payable)?

An outcome that would ensure we can make that 14:40 train at Glasgow so going on an earlier service would be preferable. Having booked advanced tickets and that a valid route is now given via Haymarket, I'm not sure how flexible Scotrail would be with this. (I would also be OK about getting a later departure from Glasgow to Euston, but that's on a separate advance ticket and again, not sure how flexible Virgin would be either).

This is new territory for me, never had a booked train on an advance ticket just disappear before.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,433
Location
Yorkshire
If your arrival time into Euston is important to you, you'd have to depart Inverness an hour earlier ... that is, if the timetable is to be believed. I'm wondering if the data is incomplete, and the train may be running after all...

Anyway, assuming the current timetable is correct...

I don't think you'd be entitled to compensation if you choose to depart earlier, but Scotrail should allow you to depart earlier if it's the only way to arrive at your destination (London Euston) on time and if you are willing to do that.

It'd be crazy for them to refuse as it could be a large Delay Repay claim otherwise
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,433
Location
Yorkshire
(I would also be OK about getting a later departure from Glasgow to Euston, but that's on a separate advance ticket and again, not sure how flexible Virgin would be either)..
I'm sure Virgin would act in accordance with contract and consumer laws and the NRCoT, by accepting the tickets on later departures.

Just in case anyone isn't familiar with the law and conditions, it's all clarified in the Advance Fare FAQs, which rail staff have access to in the internal Knowledgebase. A copy is also available in our Fares Guide.

A good retailer would back you up in the unlikely event of any dispute and wrongdoing by Virgin.
 

gord

Member
Joined
6 Jul 2011
Messages
139
Thanks for the replies Yorkie, very useful advice. Also, many thanks for making the thread title clearer.

It's interesting that it could simply be missing data and the train might still run. Hopefully I will find out nearer the time. I've never come across this before though. It will be interesting to see what Scotrail suggest if they email me back.
 
Last edited:

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,433
Location
Yorkshire
What Scotrail suggest may vary depending on who you get, and what you said.

I would not word it in the same way the opening post of this thread was worded, as that doesn't make it clear at the start what the journey actually is (ie. Inverness to London).

I would say "I have booked a journey from Inverness to London, with the following itinerary". I'd then insert a bullet pointed list of all services.

I'd then say I am using the following combination of tickets, and again insert a bullet pointed list. (If they were bought at different times I would put this in brackets by each ticket, otherwise I'd state when I bought them all in the paragraph above)

This would be followed by a brief paragraph mentioning the train which doesn't appear to be running.

I'd then state what outcome I wanted (if I had a preference) and seek advice on whether I could do that, or simply ask for a list of what my options are.

Alternatively if I had booked it all with a split ticketing website e.g.TrainSplit in one transaction, then simply following the booking confirmation email with a very short sentence seeking advice would suffice. This is because the booking confirmation email contains full detail of the journey being made and the tickets used.

That said, if I was content to arrive late and accept Delay Repay, I would just depart at the original booked time. It's only if you want the option of either departing early or being re-routed* that you would ask Scotrail.

(* In theory permission could be granted to travel on LNER via York, but I think it is unlikely that would be given in this circumstance)
 

gord

Member
Joined
6 Jul 2011
Messages
139
Unfortunately, I haven't been as clear as you suggested. I only provided them with my Inverness to Glasgow itinerary and then stated that what was an over an hour connection to my London train at Central was now just a 20 minute and possibly too short. If I don't get a reasonable outcome, I can then provide more clarity in the way you suggested so thank you.

I guess the discussion is over until something happens. I will report back as my experience may help someone in the future if they are researching this forum. This forum and other's experiences have helped me many times. It may not be until I travel that I find out what's going to happen, but hopefully it won't come to that.

However, it does leave me curious about how timetables are managed. Is it a common occurrence for services to just disappear from the timetable after the advance ticket booking has opened for them? I've seen them cancelled in advance or adjusted, but never as if it wasn't there to start with. I've been through all the port of calls that passengers are advised to go through before travelling to check for disruption or engineering works but nothing there. Do these services usually get re-instated? Never come across this before.
 

gord

Member
Joined
6 Jul 2011
Messages
139
And the assurance of having reserved seats on the Virgin service.

Yes, that is a factor to consider. We're booked in 1st class for that journey but still no guarantee of a seat I know.


Looking back at Real Train times for that week for Perth, I notice there's a HST out on testing, or due to be. I wonder if this is causing some delay in confirming routes or timetable data?

Mind you, it's pencilled in for other weeks and the Glasgow service are all shown as planned for those.

There's also electrification works in the area I believe so something must be causing these 'lost' journeys on the timetable.

Putting aside the inconvenience/interest/sense of adventure (delete as appropriate) it might cause to my journey, I am now genuinely curious as to what might be causing this.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,224
Location
Bolton
Yes, that is a factor to consider. We're booked in 1st class for that journey but still no guarantee of a seat I know.
Unless you are really unlucky and your train is short formed as a 5 car Voyager, it would be very very unlikely that you wouldn't be able to get seats in First Class leaving Glasgow Central!
 

gord

Member
Joined
6 Jul 2011
Messages
139
Spoken to National Rail, Scotrail and Virgin this evening and they're all really stumped as to where the Perth to Glasgow trains have disappeared to that week.

As I made the bookings through Virgin, they're going to call me back in an hour after they've looked into it with more depth. I have to say, the Virgin Trains advisor was the only person who seemed to have an understanding of the problem. To be fair, he was the only one who could access my booking.

We shall see what happens next...and where have those Perth to Glasgow trains gone?

Edit: Virgin Trains said to hang fire, call them back 3-4 days before my journey and if there is a cancellation, they'll sort out an alternative for me. Impressed with their customer service to be honest.
 
Last edited:

tableseat

New Member
Joined
14 Dec 2016
Messages
4
Spoken to National Rail, Scotrail and Virgin this evening and they're all really stumped as to where the Perth to Glasgow trains have disappeared to that week.

As I made the bookings through Virgin, they're going to call me back in an hour after they've looked into it with more depth. I have to say, the Virgin Trains advisor was the only person who seemed to have an understanding of the problem. To be fair, he was the only one who could access my booking.

We shall see what happens next...and where have those Perth to Glasgow trains gone?

replaced by a bus of course... Line closed between Larbet & Dunblane 14th 21 October https://www.scotrail.co.uk/about-scotrail/news/keeping-you-moving
 

gord

Member
Joined
6 Jul 2011
Messages
139
Last edited:

gord

Member
Joined
6 Jul 2011
Messages
139
This now brings up another question. Will I have to get the rail replacement bus on my advance ticket or will I be allowed to take alternative train services?
 

Kite159

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Jan 2014
Messages
19,155
Location
West of Andover
Thank you. That has literally just come onto their website, straight after I spoke to them. Spooky. At least I know I need to arrange alternative travel now.

Can't be a complete closure, looks like some trains are going through, i.e. the direct Inverness to Glasgow trains.

Maybe some are getting diverted via Ladybank & Fife?
 

dtaylor84

Member
Joined
14 Apr 2013
Messages
128
As a commuter between Bridge of Allan and Edinburgh, I was interested (and surprised) to come across this thread.

The web page seems to imply that all trains will be cancelled between Dunblane and Larbert (to Edinburgh, at least). However, trying to check the rail-replacement bus times leaves me very confused.

Edinburgh Waverley - Dunblane / Perth

From 14 October 2018 until 21 October 2018, trains from Edinburgh will terminate at Larbert, with buses replacing trains between Larbert and Stirling, Dunblane and Alloa.

Trains to Edinburgh Waverley will start from Falkirk Grahamston, with buses replacing trains between Stirling, Dunblane, Alloa and Falkirk Grahamston.

Outbound

15 Oct, Monday
  • 07:26 Bridge Of Allan
Scotrail 54m, 3 stops​
  • 08:20 Edinburgh (Waverley) / Platform 15

Return

15 Oct, Monday
  • 17:30 Edinburgh (Waverley) / Platform 11
Scotrail 36m, 2 stops​
  • 18:06 Croy / Platform 2
Change​
  • 18:10 Croy / Platform 1
Scotrail 28m, 2 stops​
  • 18:38 Bridge Of Allan

Although I also at one point saw a same-platform change at Larbert for the return journey.

Edit: this is offered by the app...

  • 17:27 Edinburgh (Waverley) / Platform 12
Scotrail 39m, 2 Stops
Haymarket
Falkirk Grahamston​
  • 18:06 Larbert / Platform 2

    Change
  • 18:21 Larbert / Platform 2
Scotrail 12m, Direct​
  • 18:33 Stirling / Platform 2

Does anyone know what is actually going on?
 
Last edited:

gord

Member
Joined
6 Jul 2011
Messages
139
Which is why I think the person I spoke to from Virgin Trains gave me the best advice in waiting until I start making alternative travel plans. No-one seems to know the details.

It's odd that engineering work of this nature is announced after advanced tickets are sold and only 4 weeks away from it happening. Something unforeseen must have crept up in the electrification works that required the closure of the line.

The services must still be being worked out. I'm going to Inverness on the Highland Chieftain (advance tickets again) on Monday 15th October so now a bit concerned what will happen to that.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
17,866
Location
Airedale
Late notice timetable alterations are par for the course ATM.
I assume the Chieftain will be diverted through Fife.
 

gord

Member
Joined
6 Jul 2011
Messages
139
Indeed, updates to the timetable are now being sorted. Journey planners are now showing the bus replacement too. Just need to await information on the Highland Chieftain now.

I'm going to ask if I am allowed to travel via Edinburgh on my advance ticket as I bought it before all of this was announced. I suspect not. Am tempted to buy a whole new ticket to avoid having to use the bus.

No doubt about the fact I'll need a later departure from Glasgow to Euston now. From what Virgin told me, that shouldn't be a problem.

Quite annoyed at the whole situation to be honest but it is what it is I suppose. Nothing I can do about it. Goes to show that buying way in advance isn't always an advantage.
 

dtaylor84

Member
Joined
14 Apr 2013
Messages
128
Scotrail now handing out leaflets about the closure at Bridge of Allan (and presumably elsewhere). Leaflet says to check www.scotrail.co.uk/electrification or the app for details of bus timings. I'm still seeing normal train timings... Bloody hopeless.

Think I'll just take the week off rather than try to work out the cryptic puzzle scotrail have produced.
 

gord

Member
Joined
6 Jul 2011
Messages
139
Scotrail now handing out leaflets about the closure at Bridge of Allan (and presumably elsewhere). Leaflet says to check www.scotrail.co.uk/electrification or the app for details of bus timings. I'm still seeing normal train timings... Bloody hopeless.

Think I'll just take the week off rather than try to work out the cryptic puzzle scotrail have produced.

Must be frustrating if that's a regular commute for you.

I know need to contact Scotrail, see if they will let me divert around Edinburgh on my Inverness to Glasgow advance ticket instead of getting the replacement bus, contact Virgin Trains and get permission to use a later train to London and keep an eye on LNER to see what they're going to do with the Highland Chieftain when I travel up on the Monday.

I would not have bothered carefully planning this journey and sorting out my advance tickets for this trip if I had known about this engineering work. I would have driven up to Inverness instead. Or spent the money flying abroad . This was all a part of my 40th birthday adventure on trains around the country ticking a few boxes along the way and it's turning a little sour now. Added on top of the fact that LNER dramatically reduced the advance prices for the Chieftain after I had bought some through VTEC back in the Spring.

This is all starting to put me off train travel a little.

I'm now off to gather the toys I have just thrown out of my pram! (Apologies for the mini rant there!)
 

318266

Member
Joined
30 Sep 2017
Messages
580
Location
The Land of the E12
According to RTT, you have to catch a bus at Perth at 1230, arriving Glasgow at 1416, calling at Stirling inbetween.

Because I don't think you would make the 1200 non-stop bus...
 

gord

Member
Joined
6 Jul 2011
Messages
139
According to RTT, you have to catch a bus at Perth at 1230, arriving Glasgow at 1416, calling at Stirling inbetween.

Because I don't think you would make the 1200 non-stop bus...

I'm hoping Scotrail will let me stay on the Edinburgh train, change at Haymarket and go onto Queen Street from there on my advance ticket. It is a valid route but not sure if my advance will allow me to do it. If they say no, me and my wife are thinking it may be worth the extra £22.60 anytime singles (Perth-Glasgow which is valid via Haymarket with Two Together Railcard) just so we don't have to get the bus. We'd end up in Glasgow at the same time anyway.

The issue will be making that 14:40 to Euston from Central. But as Virgin advised me, as long as I start off on my booked train (09:41 from Inverness), they'd have no issues with putting me on a later London service. Hopefully it can be one that bypasses the West Midlands. Looking at the timetable, looks like the 15:40 is a fast one also.

(One option I did notice was that it might be possible to get to Carlisle from Haymarket and pick up my booked Euston train from there, but I'm not sure if that would be allowed and it may overcomplicate things).

I will have a go at delay repay for the whole journey if I do end up at Euston an hour later. I assume Scotrail would be the recipients of my form. If I did end up having to pay the extra £22.60, I wouldn't claim that as it was my choice not to take the alternative travel offered to me.

Regarding getting the Highland Chieftain up on Monday 15th October, LNER have advised me that this engineering work won't affect them and they'll still be running a direct Inverness train from Kings Cross. Looks like a diversion then, although this isn't showing on Real Train Times yet.
 

gord

Member
Joined
6 Jul 2011
Messages
139
Don't think Scotrail are going to budge on this. Been told I'll have to change or cancel my ticket for a £10 admin fee if I don't want to get the bus and travel via Haymarket.

So much for planning ahead ay?
 

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2017
Messages
6,416
Don't think Scotrail are going to budge on this. Been told I'll have to change or cancel my ticket for a £10 admin fee if I don't want to get the bus and travel via Haymarket.

So much for planning ahead ay?
That's ridiculous. They have notified you of an anticipated breach of contract - a failure to provide the service as originally contracted in the itinerary. They cannot impose a penalty (£10 or not) on you for their breach of contract! That is just not how it works.

Your ticket continues to be valid on the trains originally booked, and where these have been cancelled, on any reasonable train (or rail replacement service acting in lieu of a train) complying with your ticket's route restrictions, and within permitted routes.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top