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Northern issue penalty fares after ticket office left unmanned

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NoOnesFool

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It's not Northern 's fault that she didn't allow enough time to buy her ticket. She travelled without a ticket and now must pay the Penalty.
 
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sheff1

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At the stations I regularly use, which are on the first lines to become PF ones, there are noticeable signs, a rather large and obvious splash screen on the TVMs, and before the scheme went live there was lots of media coverage about it.

You mean like (for example) the sign at one end of my local station that indicates the presence of a ticket machine at the other end?

And by a happy coincide the TVMs are generally large and obvious devices, and where they may not be visible signs are in place to indicate where they might be.

Well I can safely say that when PFs were announced for the Aire & Wharfe lines there was plenty of publicity about it in Local media, and on social media.

You keep telling us how wonderful your station, line and local media is. That doesn't mean the same applies elsewhere. If you were to travel more widely you would soon find that out.
 
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sheff1

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It's not Northern 's fault that she didn't allow enough time to buy her ticket. She travelled without a ticket and now must pay the Penalty.

???

I can see nothing in this thread about a woman who didn't allow time to buy a ticket.
 

sheff1

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Nearly all ticket machines say on them "Tickets available here" or similar... except for Northern's!

Indeed. I arrived at Conisbrough today and saw a ticket machine had been installed (I knew it was a Northern TVM because I had seen them elsewhere). "Oh look" I said to my two (less frequent traveller) colleagues "they have put in a ticket machine".

"Where ?" they asked "We can't see one".

As a bit of a test, I asked them to look more closely. They wandered around a bit, looked over to the other platform and said I was having them on. When I pointed out the TVM, they both said they thought it was an advertising board .. and this when they were specifically looking for a TVM due to my prompt ! They were expecting to see something like the TVMs at Doncaster or Sheffield.

This, totally unscientific research, suggests to me that in the absence of any sign above the TVM itself, and with no signage at the station entrance to say a ticket machine was available, a goodly % of passengers boarding will have no idea one is in place - as there have been no ticketing facilities at Conisbrough for the last 30 years (AFAIK), nobody familiar with the station is going to be looking for something on the off chance.
 

Bantamzen

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You keep telling us how wonderful your station, line and local media is. That doesn't mean the same applies elsewhere. If you were to travel more widely you would soon find that out.

Well we know the local media in Greater Manchester covered the introduction of penalty fares, because it was a topic of discussion on here previously. So there is a fairly good chance it was also covered in Merseyside don't you think? And for the record I do travel a lot, both for work and leasure. I'm just far more able to cope with change and different ways of working than some on here it seems.
 

Bantamzen

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Indeed. I arrived at Conisbrough today and saw a ticket machine had been installed (I knew it was a Northern TVM because I had seen them elsewhere). "Oh look" I said to my two (less frequent traveller) colleagues "they have put in a ticket machine".

"Where ?" they asked "We can't see one".

As a bit of a test, I asked them to look more closely. They wandered around a bit, looked over to the other platform and said I was having them on. When I pointed out the TVM, they both said they thought it was an advertising board .. and this when they were specifically looking for a TVM due to my prompt ! They were expecting to see something like the TVMs at Doncaster or Sheffield.

This, totally unscientific research, suggests to me that in the absence of any sign above the TVM itself, and with no signage at the station entrance to say a ticket machine was available, a goodly % of passengers boarding will have no idea one is in place - as there have been no ticketing facilities at Conisbrough for the last 30 years (AFAIK), nobody familiar with the station is going to be looking for something on the off chance.

I fear for them if a big machine with a card reader, number pad and a ticket slot doesn't register as some kind of device for buying something...
 

Harpers Tate

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......didn't allow enough time to buy her ticket.......
Go on then, I'll bite. Exactly how long would YOU define as "enough time"? Not just at the station in question here, but in general? Would your answer depend on factors such as station size; service frequency? If so, what factors?
 

pemma

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I fear for them if a big machine with a card reader, number pad and a ticket slot doesn't register as some kind of device for buying something...

Old machine

2012-03-05_11.52.jpg


New machine

DSC05738.JPG


Spot the major problem with the new machines (which should be very obvious.)
 

mailbyrail

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I used Dronfield this week for the first time for quite a while. It was always 'pay on the train' when I've travelled before but I checked before I travelled and saw it had a ticket machine so specially looked for it. There was a large illuminated screen at the entrance to both platforms which gave no clue it was a ticket machine although I guessed it was. Nothing said 'press here to buy ticket' and it took a while to work out how to operate.
Easy when you know how, but not obvious for me who was specially looking and desperately trying to buy a ticket. Not much hope for the occasional user who hadn't done their homework.
 

Clip

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Old machine

2012-03-05_11.52.jpg


New machine

DSC05738.JPG


Spot the major problem with the new machines (which should be very obvious.)

Now how would that look if you took one atep to the right? Perspective is everything but if youre trying to prove a point then you really shouldnt try to skew pictures in your favour
 

NoOnesFool

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Go on then, I'll bite. Exactly how long would YOU define as "enough time"? Not just at the station in question here, but in general? Would your answer depend on factors such as station size; service frequency? If so, what factors?
Well, there used to be a clause in the Penalty Fares regulations that operators should endeavour to make it possible for the passenger to purchase a ticket within ten minutes i.e. no queues of over ten minutes, it seems to have disappeared from the updated version though. But I'd say ten minutes sounds about right for a small station. That rule didn't mean that people who waited ten minutes and got on the train without a ticket couldn't still be prosecuted though, as it is still an offence to board without a ticket, no matter how long you waited.
 

Via Bank

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New machine

DSC05738.JPG


Spot the major problem with the new machines (which should be very obvious.)

From a distance, I'd assume that was a vending machine.

How hard is it for them to put a sign on the top that says "TICKETS"? I don't mean in low-contrast lettering on the screen, obscured by glare. I mean somewhere on the machine, where people can see it from a distance.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Was the person issuing the Penalty Fare actually trained and authorised to do so?

Each Collector must carry, and produce if asked, valid identification which proves that they are authorised to charge Penalty Fares on behalf of a specific Operator or Operators.
 

pemma

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From a distance, I'd assume that was a vending machine.

How hard is it for them to put a sign on the top that says "TICKETS"? I don't mean in low-contrast lettering on the screen, obscured by glare. I mean somewhere on the machine, where people can see it from a distance.

They should also put one on the sides as well. A sign on the top will make it obvious from the platform on the other side but they are over 6ft high so unless someone's looking up at the sky they won't see the sign on the top if they are closer to it.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Which would be relevant had he complained that NRE said there was no ticket machine. He didn't.
So, I trundle up to a ticket office and see a 'temporarily closed' notice.
I check NRE on my smart phone to find the location of the ticket machine, there isn't one apparently.
Slam Dunk - appeal upheld?
 

PeterY

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One advantage with Northern TVM's is I don't need to get my reading glasses out. I saw one at Worksop several weeks ago. They're massive but at first sight I thought it was a Cadbury's chocolate vending machine, similar colour. :frown::frown:
 

rs101

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Had the passenger in the article done so, yes. But there's no indication that he did.

There's no evidence he didn't either.

That sign is pretty abysmal given the layout of the station. It should have clearly said to use the ticket machine located on platform X.

If I wasn't familiar with the station, turned up, saw that sign but couldn't see the ticket machine from there, I'd probably look on NRE and check the station details. If it said there wasn't a machine, I'd assume that was correct and travel. If it said there was, I'd check the map.


This whole incident seems a perfect example of the not untypical attitude of a TOC toward customer service.
 

Bantamzen

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I have to be honest and say that it is rather worrying that so many people seem to struggle identifying a potential ticket machine, or mistake them for advertising boards or chocolate machines. If this is such an issue perhaps TOCs need to be more radical in their TVM design, perhaps incorporating large Vegas style neon displays, alternative shapes from the traditional rectangular boxes most vending devices come in, or luminous lines along platforms directing the passengers to their exact location.

</sarcasm>

Seriously though, what the heck do people think a ticket machine should look like? Because most manufacturers will put them in big metal boxes that will look like other vending machines that are also in big metal boxes. The trick is to look at them to determine if they sell tickets, much as you would look at vending machines to determine if they sold your particular choice of soft drink or favourite chocolate bar. I frankly despair of this forum sometimes.
 
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I have to be honest and say that it is rather worrying that so many people seem to struggle identifying a potential ticket machine, or mistake them for advertising boards or chocolate machines. If this is such an issue perhaps TOCs need to be more radical in their TVM design, perhaps incorporating large Vegas style neon displays, alternative shapes from the traditional rectangular boxes most vending devices come in, or luminous lines along platforms directing the passengers to their exact location.

</sarcasm>

Seriously though, what the heck do people think a ticket machine should look like? Because most manufacturers will put them in big metal boxes that will look like other vending machines that are also in big metal boxes. The trick is to look at them to determine if they sell tickets, much as you would look at vending machines to determine if they sold your particular choice of soft drink or favourite chocolate bar. I frankly despair of this forum sometimes.

I’d not expect it to have what appears to be a 5 foot screen...
 

Bantamzen

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I’d not expect it to have what appears to be a 5 foot screen...

Why not? Larger information screens are rapidly becoming the norm, so why not with TVMs? As I said previously, actually looking at the device gives a big clue as to what it is. That is how most people deal with an ever changing environment, using the senses available to them and making decisions based on that information. And funnily enough tens, hundreds, maybe even millions of people have been able to cope with the switch to new and larger ticket machines.
 

Starmill

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Literally every ticket machine I've ever used has a sign on it that says it's a ticket machine except for the new Northern ones.

Of course, there will always be those on here who think that Northern do things differently to the whole of the rest of the country because everywhere else it has just never been thought of. The PF scheme at Northern is in many ways totally unlike literally all of the others, and there are a large number of others which are all very similar to each other. To anyone rational that suggests that Northern have got it wrong when looked at in conjunction with the obvious daftness that the policy leads to, such as the case in this news article.
 

davart

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Some valid points on here and some unrealistic ones too.

I'd like to post a situation that happened to me on Friday.

I went to the ticket office to buy a return ahead of time.

I was going to travel off peak, around 0940.

I went to the ticket office to be told that I couldn't buy the ticket until 0915. It was probably 0830.

The plan was to buy a ticket, go get breakfast and get on the train.

The chap point blank refused to sell me an off peak. I checked the TVM too.

In the end I bought a peak as I couldn't be bothered to faff about.

What would have happened if I'd returned at 0915 to a huge queue?

Madness.
 

davart

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Since I have a bit of a dry sense of humour, I wonder if Northern should rebrand as 'Yorkshire Railways' and get Hale and Pace to do the adverts...
 

najaB

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I went to the ticket office to be told that I couldn't buy the ticket until 0915. It was probably 0830.
What ticket office was this? I know that some don't like to sell tickets for advance travel until after the peak, but that usually refers to complex tickets for other days (so that they can deal with people who are in a hurry).
 

rs101

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I have to be honest and say that it is rather worrying that so many people seem to struggle identifying a potential ticket machine, or mistake them for advertising boards or chocolate machines. If this is such an issue perhaps TOCs need to be more radical in their TVM design, perhaps incorporating large Vegas style neon displays, alternative shapes from the traditional rectangular boxes most vending devices come in, or luminous lines along platforms directing the passengers to their exact location.

</sarcasm>

Seriously though, what the heck do people think a ticket machine should look like? Because most manufacturers will put them in big metal boxes that will look like other vending machines that are also in big metal boxes. The trick is to look at them to determine if they sell tickets, much as you would look at vending machines to determine if they sold your particular choice of soft drink or favourite chocolate bar. I frankly despair of this forum sometimes.

How about they do something really unusual like have the word "Tickets" easily visible?

Not just at the top of a very reflective screen, maybe so it's visible from the side too?
 
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