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Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

krus_aragon

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I'll just leave this picture here ready for that eventuality...

frazer.jpg

Private Frazer from Dad's Army
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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Attention will soon move to how/where the 769s will switch their power source from diesel to electric and vice versa.
I doubt they will switch "on the fly" - 319s have never been able to do that.
They can't test any of that on the GCR.
 

mushroomchow

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Impressively quiet in that passing shot, but bear in mind that it was taken north of Quorn it wouldn't be accelerating by that point unless it wanted to make a valiant attempt to bridge the gap before the track has been laid! :lol:

Someone get a shot of it on Kinchley Lane curve and come back to me before boasting of it's "quiet engine" and lack of vibration, because from what I heard when I copped it they're actually quite hellfire when they're getting up to speed.

Either way though, the acceleration on these babies is impressive. Belatedly, I'm impressed with what they've finally put together.
 

edwin_m

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Attention will soon move to how/where the 769s will switch their power source from diesel to electric and vice versa.
I doubt they will switch "on the fly" - 319s have never been able to do that.
They can't test any of that on the GCR.
If they are used mainly on stopping service there may not be much need to change on the fly, and the KAW (Wales) units may never use electric mode at all. If there is some problem with AC mode, changeover or 100mph operation they could be introduced with a restriction to 75mph and diesel only. Presuming they could match Class 150 timings as stated in the various articles they would still fulfil the short-term need for extra DMUs.
 

JN114

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Depending how the control circuitry is wired, Diesel to DC should be possible as they’re effectively the same as far as the train is concerned.
 

driver_m

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Have all the northern conversions gone to the factory now, or are they still working services? Seen on twitter that a different set was on jacks for fitting the power packs .424 IIRC.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I was thinking about the Alderley Edge-Wigan services which are supposed to go over to 769s at some point.
I expect they will switch while stationary at Bolton in each direction, rather than at Lostock on the move.
At Oxenholme they will have to stop in the station before negotiating the Windermere branch anyway.
 

hwl

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Have all the northern conversions gone to the factory now, or are they still working services? Seen on twitter that a different set was on jacks for fitting the power packs .424 IIRC.
I think at least one partially converted unit* went back to Northern at one point earlier in the year.

*Equipment relocated from under the driving trailers to the intermediate trailer.

I suspect some units for conversion are still with Northern.
 

Clarence Yard

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Depending how the control circuitry is wired, Diesel to DC should be possible as they’re effectively the same as far as the train is concerned.

It will be but a second bus line is being installed to do it, the original DC bus being used for the Diesel side. Changeover between modes is only done when stationary.

The engine is quite quiet. If you want exhaust thrash, then standing in the gangway between coaches 1/2 and 3/4 is the place to be.
 

pemma

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At Oxenholme they will have to stop in the station before negotiating the Windermere branch anyway.

There's no plan to use them to Windermere anymore, now that the reinstatement of Windermere to Airport services have been postponed until May 2019 and there's a franchise requirement to introduce Northern Connect standard trains by December 2019. Subject to testing being successful Windermere is set to get 195s as soon as the direct Manchester services restart now.
 

tbtc

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I'd love it if we could order a batch of four coach "150s" as there are plenty of busy routes where eighty metre 75mph trains are just what is needed

Isn't that near enough exactly what a 769 is, with the added benefit of a pantograph?

Yes, that's exactly what tbtc is saying

Yup.

Whilst there's a lot of obsessing about flagship routes for former-Provincial operations (and therefore lots of 100mph trains get ordered because we must ensure that our best new trains go on our fastest routes), there are lots of routes where something equivalent to a four coach 150 would be a big step forward - the kind of boring routes that don't attract a lot of attention (being neither particularly scenic or particularly high speed).

I'm not betting my mortgage on the 769 being a roaring success based on a six second video clip - I know that things have been delayed - but the first people to bring a "four coach 150" to market should find a decent market for their train (regardless of whether they started off with a 319 or a 321 or a 455 or some D-stock or the contents of one of those sheds that the A-team used to get locked in...).

We need one of these plans to bear fruit - I'd be happy if my local trains were 230s, I'd be happy if they were converted 321/455s, at the moment it looks like the 769s might be the ones to break through - with Pacers being scrapped and 153s probably uneconomical to upgrade, there are going to be a lot of humdrum lines where four coach 75mph DMUs are going to be suited (rather than convoluted cascades where you try to put 156s with single leaf doors or 170s with poor acceleration onto "stoppers").

(for the sake of argument, I mention "321s" and "455s" but could be talking of any of the large number of 1980s EMUs potentially available - we have lots of four coach EMUs that are being freed up by new trains, we cannot electrify lines as well as we presumed we could five years ago, we have lots of slow unelectrified lines where some entrepreneur could find a medium/long term use for their redundant EMUs - I'd be happy if Eversholt could get their 321s to do the job, just as long as someone caters for this much-ignored part of the railway)
 

Bletchleyite

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To be fair re 170s, it is possible to re-gear those to 75mph but better acceleration, and possibly also to increase fuel efficiency at the same time by switching to a mechanical gearbox. In essence, turning them into ribbon-glazed Class 172s, which in the West Midlands have proven themselves to be ideal local stopping DMUs.

TBH, if I'd been speccing Northern and they'd still been on the market, I'd have ordered a stack of 3-car 172s to create new Manchester and Leeds S-Bahnen with strong branding and simplified, consistent routes and timetables (and possibly carry on the concept at lower frequencies elsewhere on the local stopping network as the Swiss do but using Class 150s in some cases), and tarted up a load of Class 158s with new seats, new aircon etc for Northern Connect, as well as 156s for the secondary expresses like Southport. Sure, they're getting on a bit, but the Class 158 is probably the best overall regional express DMU the UK has seen.
 
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507021

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If the testing goes well, how quickly can Porterbrook start to get 769s off the production line and actually fulfil their orders?
I'm guessing we are still many months off seeing any 769s in revenue earning service

It will take four to six weeks to convert a unit according to RAIL.

I think I read somewhere else that two units can be converted at the same time, but I can't remember where it was.
 

hwl

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I think I read somewhere else that two units can be converted at the same time, but I can't remember where it was.

Probably this thread with picture of 2 units in Brush at the same time?
 

driver_m

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I've read elsewhere that Northern Connect is being reviewed. So I suppose the plan could change. Given that we weren't going to have 323s on the chat Moss. (One wizzed past me the other day) then we should probably do a sweep on here as to where they'll end up. Can see a ruk thread in 2040 "unusual places you've seen a bi-mode before they go to Rotherham for razor blades"
 

jonesy3001

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I've read elsewhere that Northern Connect is being reviewed. So I suppose the plan could change. Given that we weren't going to have 323s on the chat Moss. (One wizzed past me the other day) then we should probably do a sweep on here as to where they'll end up. Can see a ruk thread in 2040 "unusual places you've seen a bi-mode before they go to Rotherham for razor blades"

The 323s are up for a C6 sometime this year, so it depends on what livery they come back in but i'll that for the 323 thread.
 

LOL The Irony

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I've read elsewhere that Northern Connect is being reviewed. So I suppose the plan could change. Given that we weren't going to have 323s on the chat Moss. (One wizzed past me the other day) then we should probably do a sweep on here as to where they'll end up. Can see a ruk thread in 2040 "unusual places you've seen a bi-mode before they go to Rotherham for razor blades"
I can see the NRRUG sending one down my way.
 

driver_m

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The 323s are up for a C6 sometime this year, so it depends on what livery they come back in but i'll that for the 323 thread.

Just for clarity I meant the 769, and where they'll end up running. Not the 323 .I was just making the point that they weren't meant to be coming Into Lime St initially. But like Northern itself. What happens one day, doesnt mean it will be the same the day after!
 

Kite159

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To be fair re 170s, it is possible to re-gear those to 75mph but better acceleration, and possibly also to increase fuel efficiency at the same time by switching to a mechanical gearbox. In essence, turning them into ribbon-glazed Class 172s, which in the West Midlands have proven themselves to be ideal local stopping DMUs.

TBH, if I'd been speccing Northern and they'd still been on the market, I'd have ordered a stack of 3-car 172s to create new Manchester and Leeds S-Bahnen with strong branding and simplified, consistent routes and timetables (and possibly carry on the concept at lower frequencies elsewhere on the local stopping network as the Swiss do but using Class 150s in some cases), and tarted up a load of Class 158s with new seats, new aircon etc for Northern Connect, as well as 156s for the secondary expresses like Southport. Sure, they're getting on a bit, but the Class 158 is probably the best overall regional express DMU the UK has seen.

Going back a few years, wasn't there a provisional order of additional 172s made for Northern (and GWR) but was cancelled by the SRA because "everything is getting wired, you don't need new DMUS"?
 

LOL The Irony

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Going back a few years, wasn't there a provisional order of additional 172s made for Northern (and GWR) but was cancelled by the SRA because "everything is getting wired, you don't need new DMUS"?
Indeed there was. The Northern Rail units were going to directly replace pacer's where as their CAF successor's are indirectly replacing them.
 

pemma

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Going back a few years, wasn't there a provisional order of additional 172s made for Northern (and GWR) but was cancelled by the SRA because "everything is getting wired, you don't need new DMUS"?

And TPE. It was at least 202 vehicles - 40 for TPE, 32 for GWR and the rest for Northern. TPE got the 350/4s instead which added up to the right number but they have 20m carriages not the 23.8m the new DMUs would have had, plus they had to route Scottish services via Wigan to use the wires which increased the strain on services via Bolton.
 

pemma

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Indeed there was. The Northern Rail units were going to directly replace pacer's where as their CAF successor's are indirectly replacing them.

That isn't correct. The new trains were for extra capacity, which is why it created a headache when Chiltern took the TPE 170s and Northern had to sublease TPE DMUs, despite Northern having some 319s in service by then and TPE having the 350/4s in service.

There was a proposal to replace the Pacers with new stock but that was using low cost CSRE trains, which never got anywhere. CSRE were also the company who were supposed to supply Alliance Rail/GNWR with an alternative type of diesel tilting train - another proposal which never got anywhere!
 

sprinterguy

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TBH, if I'd been speccing Northern and they'd still been on the market, I'd have ordered a stack of 3-car 172s...
Agreed: It'd make most sense to me for a fleet of 172s to have directly replace the Pacers and tatty and ageing 150s, rather than yet another injection of new trains on the top end services (See the 185s, and 175s before them, though the latter did admittedly replace slam door 101s and loco-hauled mark 2s) that do little to improve the lot of the majority of commuters and result in the cascade of inappropriate 23m end door stock to urban services. Even Northern Spirit circa 2000/2001 proposed a fleet of faster accelerating, lightweight "Turbostar lite" units (Which is ultimately what was developed in the form of the 172s) to replace the Pacers.

The 172s with London Midland have really turned around the Snow Hill lines compared to the grotty, cramped and stuffy 150s that preceded them, and the 158s given an appropriate refurbishment akin to the ATW units with USB/plug sockets at each seat would have been eminently suitable to handle the Northern Connect requirement.

As it is, it's still all a bit of a dog's dinner, much like the Northern refurbishment programme itself.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Going back a few years, wasn't there a provisional order of additional 172s made for Northern (and GWR) but was cancelled by the SRA because "everything is getting wired, you don't need new DMUS"?

Plus they were regarded as unaffordable, and the manufacturers didn't want to build them (emissions regulations, low numbers etc).
We have CAF and Stadler now, and suitable diesel power packs.
And bi-modes.
The SRA had been abolished when the issue of new DMUs came up, and it was Andrew Adonis's DfT which declared that the future was electric.
While the cancellation led to severe capacity problems, I think we have more and better new trains on order as a result.
 

pemma

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Plus they were regarded as unaffordable, and the manufacturers didn't want to build them (emissions regulations, low numbers etc).
We have CAF and Stadler now, and suitable diesel power packs.
And bi-modes.
The SRA had been abolished when the issue of new DMUs came up, and it was Andrew Adonis's DfT which declared that the future was electric.
While the cancellation led to severe capacity problems, I think we have more and better new trains on order as a result.

We don't know what would have happened had the order gone ahead. If Northern had been running brand new trains for a couple of years maybe the government would have been under pressure to not only allow the next franchise to replace Pacers but also to replace Sprinters (given the Sprinters could have looked vastly inferior to other new trains running around) or maybe Northern wouldn't have got any more new trains and would have had to make do with cast offs alongside the new trains.
 

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