Poor experience on 1805 Edinburgh to Dunblane: poor communication from Scotrail

[Mingulay]

To cap it off my DUNBLANE train has just been cancelled. No Driver. But they announce it’s a signal signal problem. Looks like we are back to not telling the truth again ! Thanks Scotrail. !

 

[scotraildriver]

Is that the 18.05 Edinburgh to Dunblane? If so it's not a lie, but due to a signalling issue at Larbert your driver isn't back in Edinburgh from his previous run. So yes, no driver caused by a signalling issue. Regarding the timetable, we currently are showing empty stock movements which don't correspond with in service trains, so I wouldn't take what's publicly available as gospel at the moment.

 

[Mingulay]

Is that the 18.05 Edinburgh to Dunblane? If so it's not a lie, but due to a signalling issue at Larbert your driver isn't back in Edinburgh from his previous run. So yes, no driver caused by a signalling issue

That’s a convenient blur. We are cancelled as no driver. That’s the reason. Why we have no driver is another matter. It’s spin. There should be a driver available if there is a reason for the scheduled driver not showing up?

But as ever scotrail train staff are cheery and we take it on the chin.

Not the first time the station announcements are not wholly accurate. Been taken off a train as we are told it’s broken down. Only to see it leave with passengers to Dundee 3 mins later with not so much as a man in an orange boiler suit attending So there is always the suspicion that the reasons for cancellation get spun.

 

[scotraildriver]

The scheduled driver hadn't arrived back at Waverley having been delayed at Larbert. You cant keep an unlimited number of spare drivers hanging around doing nothing "just in case." Anyway was just trying to explain a reason but your clearly not interested and think its just a big cover up so I won't bother again.

 

[Mingulay]

The scheduled driver hadn't arrived back at Waverley having been delayed at Larbert. You cant keep an unlimited number of spare drivers hanging around doing nothing "just in case." Anyway was just trying to explain a reason but your clearly not interested and think its just a big cover up so I won't bother again.

No. I appreciate your giving a full response. But the impression to the passenger is that a signal problem is precluding the trains passage is out with scotrail control. Whereas no driver looks less forgiveable. If the driver was not available because he got caught up in heavy traffic in Leith walk it amounts to the same. There was no driver. Just say so.

No big cover up just poor communication and mixed messages to passengers

 

[scotraildriver]

But then peope want to know WHY there is no driver. Because of signalling problems. Round and round in circles. Things happen to drivers. It's unfortunate but it happens. Take last Sunday as an example - trans Pennine and Virgin services in utter chaos because the M8 was shut by a suicidal person, and drivers couldn't get to work or to and from Polmadie depot. But the public will never accept that as a reason so we just have to do our best and deal with the flak. "Driver couldn't be bothered turning up" "what does the M8 have to do with driving a train" bla bla bla. Anyway just pointing out there is always a reason for a driver being unavailable. We don't do it deliberately and often trains will NOT be cancelled due to drivers goodwill (ie working on after a shift, taking a shorter break,working a day off). We do our best.

 

[snookertam]

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No. I appreciate your giving a full response. But the impression to the passenger is that a signal problem is precluding the trains passage is out with scotrail control. Whereas no driver looks less forgiveable. If the driver was not available because he got caught up in heavy traffic in Leith walk it amounts to the same. There was no driver. Just say so.

No big cover up just poor communication and mixed messages to passengers

Its not the same thing. If it is part of a driver's diagram to work the 18:05 Edinburgh to Dunblane, and their previous working is delayed by a signaling problem meaning that they aren't in position, then the signalling problem is responsible. ScotRail are within their rights to state that it is to do with the signalling problem. Otherwise the driver would have been there.

If a driver got caught in traffic in Leith walk, then that's not a railway related issue, so they can then say the cancellation is due to the lack of driver.

There is a wider argument about whether or not ScotRail should habitually have spare drivers at the bothy for this scenario, but whether you can always have a driver sitting there waiting is another question.

 

[Mingulay]

But then peope want to know WHY there is no driver. Because of signalling problems. Round and round in circles. Things happen to drivers. It's unfortunate but it happens. Take last Sunday as an example - trans Pennine and Virgin services in utter chaos because the M8 was shut by a suicidal person, and drivers couldn't get to work or to and from Polmadie depot. But the public will never accept that as a reason so we just have to do our best and deal with the flak. "Driver couldn't be bothered turning up" "what does the M8 have to do with driving a train" bla bla bla. Anyway just pointing out there is always a reason for a driver being unavailable. We don't do it deliberately and often trains will NOT be cancelled due to drivers goodwill (ie working on after a shift, taking a shorter break,working a day off). We do our best.

Totally accept that train staff do thier best. I say that routinely on here. Lovely bunch in the main.

But as passengers we would expect that when the unexpected happens and drivers or conductors can’t make it to crew a train that there is a sufficient pool of drivers to cover. It seems there is the bare minimum of drivers. So a management issue. Not a gripe with on train staff who do good work. More drivers needed ?

 

[scotraildriver]

Yes exactly. More drivers are needed. But, as a business, how many staff can you afford to have hanging around getting paid to do nothing when the vast majority of times that's exactly what happens? Ideally there would be lots of spare crew but how many businesses can do that?

 

[Highlandspring]

The problem is that for every cancellation due to a crew or unit out of place there are 10 occasions when resources (including spare traincrew) have been stepped up or otherwise manipulated to cover a shortage or during disruption and the public never ever get to know about it. The TSDMs in ScotRail Control and the TCSs in the stations do an excellent job often under very trying circumstances. But forget that, the driver apparently “can’t be bothered showing up”.

 

[Mingulay]

Yes exactly. More drivers are needed. But, as a business, how many staff can you afford to have hanging around getting paid to do nothing when the vast majority of times that's exactly what happens? Ideally there would be lots of spare crew but how many businesses can do that?

Fair point. But only you guys can say what is reasonably needed to avoid what happened tonight

But if the alliance takes the position that the passenger is front and centre as we are being told ,then networkrail pay for the extra staff that are required to be held on reserve standby due to their ,signalling failures. It’s one industry as far as passengers are concerned and signalling failures seem very common.

I would like to see the next phase of electrification being the wiring up of certain parts of the anatomy of the head of network rail, Scotrail, Grayling and whichever Scottish minister turn it is to be transport minister , and union bosses . When things go awry. The passengers get to throw the switch and they all get the message together. In a painful but highly amusing way . It may not sort the problems right away but it makes the passengers feel a lot less grumpy and in the long term they may all work better together

Do you think that’s a runner?

 

[Mingulay]

The problem is that for every cancellation due to a crew or unit out of place there are 10 occasions when resources (including spare traincrew) have been stepped up or otherwise manipulated to cover a shortage or during disruption and the public never ever get to know about it. The TSDMs in ScotRail Control and the TCSs in the stations do an excellent job often under very trying circumstances. But forget that, the driver apparently “can’t be bothered showing up”.

I did not say he could not be bothered showing up. You personalize and misrepresent the point.

 

[scotraildriver]

Fair point. But only you guys can say what is reasonably needed to avoid what happened tonight

But if the alliance takes the position that the passenger is front and centre as we are being told ,then networkrail pay for the extra staff that are required to be held on reserve standby due to their ,signalling failures. It’s one industry as far as passengers are concerned and signalling failures seem very common.

I would like to see the next phase of electrification being the wiring up of certain parts of the anatomy of the head of network rail, Scotrail, Grayling and whichever Scottish minister turn it is to be transport minister , and union bosses . When things go awry. The passengers get to throw the switch and they all get the message together. In a painful but highly amusing way . It may not sort the problems right away but it makes the passengers feel a lot less grumpy and in the long term they may all work better together

Do you think that’s a runner?

Ha, maybe funny but as staff we get equally frustrated by baffling decisions made by government. The 385/156 seats, splitting the sleeper franchise, the dreadful smartcard system etc etc. We all agree that less political involvment would be a great thing. Signalling failures are not common, but everyone knows about them in this age of Twitter etc. I, personally , haven't had a train cancelled in as long as I can remember. And I'm driving them 10 hours a day. Also signalling failure covers such a wide range of issues. Whilst equipment failure happens often it's outside factors causing the issues. Scottish Power failures are common, animals/birds/trees interfering with overhead lines, vandalism(shopping trolleys and the like) ,tresspass etc will often result in being reported as signal failure as it has affected the signalling system. But at the end of the day all these issues cause a "fail safe" scenario where trains stop keeping you safe. Whilst highly frustrating for passengers it also results in us having the one of the safest railways in the world.

 

[Mingulay]

Ha, maybe funny but as staff we get equally frustrated by baffling decisions made by government. The 385/156 seats, splitting the sleeper franchise, the dreadful smartcard system etc etc. We all agree that less political involvment would be a great thing. Signalling failures are not common, but everyone knows about them in this age of Twitter etc. I, personally , haven't had a train cancelled in as long as I can remember. And I'm driving them 10 hours a day. Also signalling failure covers such a wide range of issues. Whilst equipment failure happens often it's outside factors causing the issues. Scottish Power failures are common, animals/birds/trees interfering with overhead lines, vandalism(shopping trolleys and the like) ,tresspass etc will often result in being reported as signal failure as it has affected the signalling system. But at the end of the day all these issues cause a "fail safe" scenario where trains stop keeping you safe. Whilst highly frustrating for passengers it also results in us having the one of the safest railways in the world.

Fair point and well made. And I do value the safety aspect. And it is a testimony to a safety culture . I agree politicians have a poor record on transport choices. Ferries a case in point

I just hope my anticipation of the new trains and electrification and long wait for a better commute is not going to be a big let down from my DUNBLANE perspective as seems to be unfolding these past few days. It certainly will be in contrast to the hype. I hope the new timetable does not create losers for some towns. It was never sold as such

 

[scotraildriver]

I don't think it will. If it does then go straight to your MSP. They made the decisions and they can change them.

 

[PHILIPE]

The root cause of the delay is usually given, i.e. signal failure in this case.