Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[Highlandspring]

It’s leaving at 2050.

 

[LeylandLen]

They obviously have to balance the stock and locomotives,.If they cancelled 1B16 and the N/B makes it to Aberdeen then they would have two sets at Aberdeen

 

[Highlandspring]

Which is what happened on Monday morning - it’s not really a huge deal to sort out in the grand scheme of things. Anyway the line isn’t likely to reopen before tomorrow afternoon at the very earliest so I’d expect that 1A25 will be diverted too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Actually I'd disagree, for the West Highland line the fact that it brings in so many tourists it is a lifeline and its kind of an indication that London does care and does regard particularly Lochaber as something that belongs to the UK and is worth supporting. Id think that would be the case for all the Highlander services to one degree or another and probably so to a lessor extent for the lowlanders.

It's more the Lowlanders I'd see as a concern - there are plenty of day trains and flights. The West Highland, despite BR's attempt to kill it off, is probably the most important one as it is the only way for a Londoner (a huge market) to have a weekend away in the area with no time off work at all - all the other options are likely to at least involve leaving a bit early to get a flight to pick up a hire car to arrive at a reasonable hour when your accommodation is still checking people in - or to get to FW on day trains a generous half day holiday and a long Sunday on trains having had to take a bus due to the lack of a morning train on the line.

Of the Highlanders Aberdeen is probably the biggest concern, and I could see, if it keeps getting such low numbers (wasn't it the oil workers who used to bolster it?), it being removed in favour of connections and a much simpler arrangement of two half-trains, one to FW and one to Inverness - which would if nothing else hugely simplify the shunt.

 

[Mike395]

1B16 likely to be cancelled tonight due to a derailment at Stonehaven.

*edit* I’m told 1B16 will divert via Inverness...

Looks like they couldn't make it work... from their Twitter feed just now:

A line blockage at #Stonehaven means our Aberdeen to Euston service tonight is cancelled. Guests are advised to utilise Rail Replacement buses to Edinburgh, with ticket acceptance granted with @scotrail and @CrossCountryUK at stations south of Dundee.

They're putting everyone onto the Lowlander by the looks of it.

 

[mde]

Certainly the subsidy is very weakly justified if it is not used as a “lifeline” service by Scots.

I suspect more would use it if Serco did a re-pricing exercise - just now it's nearly bleeding as much cash as RBS of years past. The last set of accounts don't make for pleasant reading…

 

[InOban]

I guess that when they discovered that the line wouldn't reopen until tomorrow evening, they realised there was no point. It will mean that the Aberdeen vehicles will swap from one set to the other, assuming things run tomorrow night.

On the main topic, I remain puzzled by the poor performance of the Aberdeen portion. Is it airline competition - but Inverness also has early flights to London?
Is it the frequent stops which must make it difficult to get a good sleep after Edinburgh?
I wonder whether they should make a big bid for the Dundee market, since the city is on the up, and anyone needing to get an early flight to London has a really early start to get to Edinburgh airport.

 

[Bald Rick]

It's more the Lowlanders I'd see as a concern - there are plenty of day trains and flights. The West Highland, despite BR's attempt to kill it off, is probably the most important one as it is the only way for a Londoner (a huge market) to have a weekend away in the area with no time off work at all - all the other options are likely to at least involve leaving a bit early to get a flight to pick up a hire car to arrive at a reasonable hour when your accommodation is still checking people in - or to get to FW on day trains a generous half day holiday and a long Sunday on trains having had to take a bus due to the lack of a morning train on the line.

It isn’t the only way. It is relatively easy to get to Ft Bill, or indeed anywhere up the WHL south of there (except Rannoch or Corrour) before 2200 by leaving work in central London (and even most parts of outer London) 1600-1700, flying and car hire. I’ve done it myself several times. And coming back, I’ve been coming down one of the Mamores off Glen Nevis at 1700 and been in bed in Hertfordshire by 2300. Entirely achievable, at a much lower cost (particularly if there is more than one of you).

 

[JohnMcL7]

I guess that when they discovered that the line wouldn't reopen until tomorrow evening, they realised there was no point. It will mean that the Aberdeen vehicles will swap from one set to the other, assuming things run tomorrow night.

On the main topic, I remain puzzled by the poor performance of the Aberdeen portion. Is it airline competition - but Inverness also has early flights to London?
Is it the frequent stops which must make it difficult to get a good sleep after Edinburgh?
I wonder whether they should make a big bid for the Dundee market, since the city is on the up, and anyone needing to get an early flight to London has a really early start to get to Edinburgh airport.

My guess would be more tourists and similar to Inverness?

I was curious how much the sleeper costs are between Inverness and London at the moment so priced up a trip I'm planning early December and it's £335 on the sleeper and £70 (including luggage surcharges) to fly although being solo really hurts the pricing for the sleeper.

 

[Bletchleyite]

HOW much?

I still think they will regret not seeking out a workable option for the flatbeds or some form of couchettes.

 

[47271]

To say it's a dump is a bit strong, but nobody chooses to go to Aberdeen, so there's no tourist market, and there's plenty of other ways to make a functional journey between NE Scotland and London.

I admire Bald Rick's energy and ability to find any way other than the sleeper, but the reality is that the Fort William and Inverness sections do have a more dominant position in their markets, and people do want to go to those places.

I was uncomplimentary about CS's Aberdeen pricing and relationship marketing upthread. The other point that occurs is that one of the strengths of the Inverness section is that it does good trade from intermediate stations, particularly Aviemore, Kingussie, Pitlochry and Dunkeld. It's very difficult for another mode to compete with a direct overnight link from a rural railhead like Pitlochry to London. Are they doing enough to clean up on places like Montrose and, for heavens sake, the city of Dundee? I don't think they are.

At the risk of repeating myself, if only they could get the Aberdeen to start out from Inverness around 730pm they would open up a load of potential business and tourism marketing opportunities.

 

[Bald Rick]

I admire Bald Rick's energy and ability to find any way other than the sleeper, but the reality is that the Fort William and Inverness sections do have a more dominant position in their markets, and people do want to go to those places.

The other point that occurs is that one of the strengths of the Inverness section is that it does good trade from intermediate stations, particularly Aviemore, Kingussie, Pitlochry and Dunkeld. It's very difficult for another mode to compete with a direct overnight link from a rural railhead like Pitlochry to London.

I’m not sure about a dominant position. Almost 10,000 people a week fly between London and Inverness. I don’t know the sleeper numbers on the same city pair, but would be surprised if it was more than a quarter of that. I’d also be willing to bet that there are more people doing London to Inverness by day train than sleeper.

I agree the intermediate highland stations have a better competitive position. But still, I think more will take day train options than the sleeper, and fly/drive will be higher yet. No evidence, just a hunch.

Fort William and the West Highland is also a different market, and the sleeper will have a good share. But I still wouldn’t say dominant.

 

[47271]

I’m not sure about a dominant position. Almost 10,000 people a week fly between London and Inverness. I don’t know the sleeper numbers on the same city pair, but would be surprised if it was more than a quarter of that. I’d also be willing to bet that there are more people doing London to Inverness by day train than sleeper.

I agree the intermediate highland stations have a better competitive position. But still, I think more will take day train options than the sleeper, and fly/drive will be higher yet. No evidence, just a hunch.

Fort William and the West Highland is also a different market, and the sleeper will have a good share. But I still wouldn’t say dominant.

You're quite right, but I said 'more dominant' not 'dominant', and I base that only on the knowledge that Fort William and Inverness load well versus low populations within their catchments, and Aberdeen doesn't when it serves a prosperous medium sized city.

Anyway, my point was more that CS needs to reflect on their successes at some intermediate highland stations and try to replicate that on the harder to reach parts between Aberdeen and Edinburgh, maybe I'm wrong, but I see no evidence of them doing that at the moment.

If I was a smart business type living in Banchory for example (and there will be a lot of those) then I should be in no doubt that the easiest way for me to get to London is to drive to Stonehaven in the late evening and jump on the sleeper, and not mess around getting up at 4am to be at Aberdeen Airport at 6am. I'm not saying that I'd take the bait, but I'll bet you that 80% of that market doesn't even know that the sleeper exists.

 

[TimboM]

Due to the unit derailment at Stonehaven and caping of 1B16 an additional ECS working is planned for tomorrow morning from Edinburgh to Wembley to rebalance the stock:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O46574/2018/10/11/advanced

 

[Scotrail84]

1B16 caped, will form tonight’s 1B16 instead.

1A25 caped, stock to run empty to Wembley from Edinburgh.

 

[Scotrail84]

Here’s the timings for the ECS move.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O46574/2018/10/11/advanced

 

[Norther Monkey]

If I was a smart business type living in Banchory for example (and there will be a lot of those) then I should be in no doubt that the easiest way for me to get to London is to drive to Stonehaven in the late evening and jump on the sleeper, and not mess around getting up at 4am to be at Aberdeen Airport at 6am. I'm not saying that I'd take the bait, but I'll bet you that 80% of that market doesn't even know that the sleeper exists.

I'm not sure I'd describe myself as a 'smart business type' but the journey you describe isn't far off what I do regularly.

I can book in advance and thus typically pay £25-30 each way to fly. Sleeper on the odd occasion I use it well over £100. I really was hoping the couchettes might close that price gap to make the sleeper a viable option.

 

[RLBH]

I still think they will regret not seeking out a workable option for the flatbeds or some form of couchettes.

I can't see how anyone thought that seats which recline to a fully flat position would have anything to offer; when you start looking at the geometry of it, they take up about as much space as beds that don't turn into seats. They only make sense on airliners because passengers need to be in an upright seat for takeoff, and converting it to a bed saves having separate facilities.

Couchettes, I can't see why they wouldn't work. On a back-of-the-envelope estimate, you'd get 32 passengers in one coach, similar to the old LNER third-class sleepers. Put two on a portion, one to replace the seated car and one to soak up the non-tourist traffic, and reduce the luxury sleeping cars from six to five. Sounds like a plan, no?

At the risk of repeating myself, if only they could get the Aberdeen to start out from Inverness around 730pm they would open up a load of potential business and tourism marketing opportunities.

Anecdotes aren't data - but I know there are a fair few people between Inverness and Aberdeen who'd consider using the sleeper if it ran through their local station. Might well be logistically challenging to fit two sleepers in to Inverness.

 

[Norther Monkey]

As I've said before intermediate stations are a potential source of business that simply aren't targeted. When I regularly worked in the Midland the sleeper from Crewe/Preston was the ONLY way to have a full day at one end an be at the other the next morning.

 

[TimboM]

1B26 caped this morning.

1S26 has worked through to Glasgow, with 90047 running light engine in the wee hours back to Polmadie as 0B26 VSTP.

Presumably linked to the knock-on disruption caused by the Stonehaven derailment and need to run the extra ECS.

 

[31160]

The Ft Bill portion yesterday morning had a pair of 73's and 3xMK3 sleepers, is that due to the extra sleeper or did they need it in Ft William. Also with the continued hire in of the skip and occasional use of a 47 is this an indication that there arnt enough 73's to reliably handle the diagrams or are they still tying one or more up doing MK5 testing?, will tge December timetable change mean anything sleeper changes or will it be as now,timing and motive power wise I know the new coaches are delayed,thanks

 

[Highlandspring]

1B26 caped this morning.

1S26 has worked through to Glasgow, with 90047 running light engine in the wee hours back to Polmadie as 0B26 VSTP.

Presumably linked to the knock-on disruption caused by the Stonehaven derailment and need to run the extra ECS.

1B26 was cancelled because 1S26 was only running with one brakevan. I think this actually goes back to the failure of 47749 in Aberdeen earlier this week, as it had been intended to run its set from Aberdeen to Carstairs to attach to 1B26 on Tuesday but it had to run to Polmadie instead because the sidings at Carstairs were blocked by a grinder. Things have been out of position ever since.

 

[Chrism20]

I guess that when they discovered that the line wouldn't reopen until tomorrow evening, they realised there was no point. It will mean that the Aberdeen vehicles will swap from one set to the other, assuming things run tomorrow night.

On the main topic, I remain puzzled by the poor performance of the Aberdeen portion. Is it airline competition - but Inverness also has early flights to London?
Is it the frequent stops which must make it difficult to get a good sleep after Edinburgh?
I wonder whether they should make a big bid for the Dundee market, since the city is on the up, and anyone needing to get an early flight to London has a really early start to get to Edinburgh airport.

I think the Aberdeen situation is a combination of a two things, mainly the downturn in Aberdeen and the CS fares.

The number of flights to/from Aberdeen and London hasn't really changed much but fares have reduced a fair bit whilst at the same time the average room rate in hotels in and around Aberdeen has to be polite fell on its backside. As recent as six years ago you struggled to get a room in Aberdeen for under £100 a night, however the building of hotels hasn't slowed down and going online right now to Hilton or IHG websites will get you a room tonight in a 3/4* for as little as £57. Couple that with the reduced fares and it is now significantly cheaper to fly to/from Aberdeen so unlike the days gone by the sleeper is now looks terribly expensive at £160 each way. Even checking in bags for both flight sectors and staying overnight in Aberdeen its probably just slightly more than a one way trip in a single cabin on the sleeper.

I disagree with what some others have said that a return to bargain berths is what is required. Even mailing out the people who have signed up for promotional stuff on their website etc would stimulate some demand. Virgin/LNER/EMT/XC etc all do this a couple of times a year with 20/25% off prepaid fares to stimulate demand. I have received not one promotional email from CS this year but in the last few weeks I've had discount codes for Virgin, EMT and XC. Had no plans to go anywhere but am now going to Birmingham for a couple of nights and Newcastle for the day Christmas shopping because the discount made the fares look attractive enough so it does work.

Also re the targeting of Dundee I think the 6am arrival into Dundee is a negative there tbh. It suits people travelling home to Dundee but tourists will struggle to get into a hotel at 6am without paying extra for it and it's also probably too early for someone arriving on business. Unless you need to be in Dundee at 6am the Lowlander is probably a more attractive option if you wanted to do it by rail.

 

[DuncanS]

If you couldn't get a room in Aberdeen for under £100 you were clearly checking the wrong sites.

 

[TimboM]

The Ft Bill portion yesterday morning had a pair of 73's and 3xMK3 sleepers, is that due to the extra sleeper or did they need it in Ft William. Also with the continued hire in of the skip and occasional use of a 47 is this an indication that there arnt enough 73's to reliably handle the diagrams or are they still tying one or more up doing MK5 testing?, will tge December timetable change mean anything sleeper changes or will it be as now,timing and motive power wise I know the new coaches are delayed,thanks

2x 73s for extra traction in leaf fall season.

Nothing wrong with the 73/9’s reliability nor any motive power changes planned.

A 47 has done two runs in about the last year. 67 on hire to cover 73/9 on Mk5 testing in effect.

 

[Chrism20]

If you couldn't get a room in Aberdeen for under £100 you were clearly checking the wrong sites.

Well if you want to stay in a hellhole B&B down Crown Street it might have been cheaper but for hotels the ARR was consistently over £100 a night midweek before the oil industry went pop.

I can remember the days when rooms in Travelodges in Aberdeen used to go for £180 a night.

 

[scotrail170407]

Does anyone have the diagrams for which loco hauls the sleepers out of Euston? I am interested in seeing 87002 and 86s. Also do the 86s or the 87s haul the sleeper into Euston in the evening?

 

[JohnMcL7]

HOW much?

I still think they will regret not seeking out a workable option for the flatbeds or some form of couchettes.

I was really hoping the new carriages would offer something suitable between the cabin and the seated option for solo travellers as I did try the seat option and even aside from just about everything being broken, it really wasn't a very pleasant experience.

 

[Mag_seven]

Does anyone have the diagrams for which loco hauls the sleepers out of Euston? I am interested in seeing 87002 and 86s. Also do the 86s or the 87s haul the sleeper into Euston in the evening?

87002 tends to work 5S96 from Wembley to Euston (the stock for the lowlander) in the evening and 5M11 from Euston to Wembley in the morning (the stock ex the Lowlander). At the moment 86101 is the other ACLG loco at the Euston end but is out of service at the moment. 86401 is the ACLG loco at the Scottish end and it tends to work 5M11 from Polmadie to Glasgow Central in the evening and 5S26 from Glasgow Central to Polmadie in the morning.

All of these workings can of course be substituted for CS Class 92s or hired in FL Class 90s. The ACLG machines very rarely work passenger, generally being confined to ECS. Best bet for any passenger use is the Edinburgh-Carstairs portion of the lowlander.

 

[telstarbox]

Of the Highlanders Aberdeen is probably the biggest concern, and I could see, if it keeps getting such low numbers (wasn't it the oil workers who used to bolster it?), it being removed in favour of connections and a much simpler arrangement of two half-trains, one to FW and one to Inverness - which would if nothing else hugely simplify the shunt.

Sorry if this is a stupid question but why do the oil workers live so far from Aberdeen - is it the two weeks on/off which makes it worth living down south and commuting for each rotation?