Arriva Rail North DOO

[Starmill]

And it is already the case on VTWC, XC, and was on Southern prior to the DOO move.

I believe it is on DMUs at Chiltern as well?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I believe it is on DMUs at Chiltern as well?

As is Hull Trains and Grand Central. Even the now retired Chiltern first generation bubble cars were driver release and guard lock.

There is no issue with that method of work at all.

Indeed it seems there is no issue with driver open and close, as has been agreed on Anglia, as long as there is still a guarantee of a safety critical member of staff on board.

Indeed the Anglia solution gives the best of both worlds - with one exception. It allegedly reduces dwell times and speeds up trains - which of course was the principal reason often cited for going DCO / DOO anyway, and increases the time the on board staff member can spend in the train doing customer facing activities. Both are things the companies - and posters on here - have cited as very important and key reasons to go DOO. It doesn't however mean a train can run without somebody on board, so still gives that guarantee that there will always be a member of staff on board.

If the TOCs employed enough staff in the first place then the lack of a guard is rarely an issue. Indeed at the TOC I work for then cancellations or delays due to no driver are far far greater in number than cancellations due to no guard, yet I don't see anyone demanding we get rid of drivers to reduce cancellations.

 

[PR1Berske]

Quite. We are talking a matter of a few short months now though until new rolling stock is going to be required in passenger service.

Unlikely that the company will want to have that on the same terms that current stock works on, isn't it? So for a relatively lengthy period, both old and new methods of working would be planned. Thus, crunch time for somebody.

Suppose that's an angle rarely discussed here. DOO on current stock might well have a justified reason to cause the RMT to strike. DOO on new stock perhaps less justified.

I am so certain that strikes are going to carry on forever that I am changing my weekend plans under the assumption that we will never have a "Normal" weekend up north for the foreseeable. As a pin-in-the-map different-place-every-weekend groundhopper, the loss of Northern services every weekend is cutting my hobby to the bare bones, but if the RMT want to ruin peoples' plans without budging an inch, so be it. We're resourceful up north, we potter on!

 

[Tomnick]

If I recall correctly that also happens on trains with guards.
...

Yes, it does. I'm aware of three - via the RAIB - in the last decade or so though, against maybe four or five times that involving DOO trains. You're right about risk though, and I'll admit that you probably couldn't make a case for retaining guards on the PTI risk alone. Add in the other benefits, emergency situations etc., and it must come close to justifying the additional cost of a safety-critical second member of staff over a 'customer service' OBS. The depths of the Hope Valley or the top of Dent Dale are very different places to anywhere on London Underground's network too - the driver might be alone with a trainload of passengers on the latter, but help is never all that far away. You could quite reasonably be looking at an hour or more for any sort of assistance to arrive at the former.

However, a train that has been rostered to carry a guard, conductor or OBS who for any reason isn't available currently won't run? If it's the last train of the day and that member of crew is missing the train may have to run ECS to wherever it needs to be at the end of the day?

Seems silly to operate an empty train, leaving perhaps only 5 or 6 passengers at various points along the route? OK lets let them travel, this once. So the thin edge is inserted. Within 12 months that service would be operated driver only 2 or 3 times a week - and before long it's accepted as full DOO. Probably no accidents, if all goes well. Probably?

I'm afraid there aren't easy half measures because most of us with any length of work experience know what happens next. If you're in management you want to push it as far as you can. That lightly loaded last train may be OK once in a while. The rammed full train at 17.30 may not be. Yet it's been done elsewhere for decades!

Now bringing in a specific example, the last train from Manchester to Sheffield due to stop at Hathersage and Grindleford. It's usually lightly loaded. It's often late due to a variety of problems built up during the day. It runs through a lot of cuttings in open country and two long tunnels. It's running with only a driver, stopping all stations. No, it doesn't hit an alien or Dr Who but a fallen tree in the same place and the driver is just as incapacitated. There is no mobile signal in the cutting and on the embankments in and around the woods between Hathersage and Grindleford. Passengers are on their own to find their way along the tracks to one of the unmanned stations. Some may know which way is best. The woods are a bad option, even in daylight for those who've ever walked or worked in there! (It's where Network Rail was going to build a loop for the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme until they found how difficult it would be for both construction and access.)

It's thousands of special situations such as this across the north that are at the heart of this dispute. The RMT waves the shroud of a possible Grenfell scale disaster. In 50 years we all hope it won't happen, but it's the nature of accidents that they do happen, somewhere, and with unpredictable results. Even when one does happen it's by no means certain that a fully trained guard would cope better than an OBS - or even members of the public left to use their initiative! But clearly they should.

Management of risk is not, and never can be, a totally precise science! Accounting for the most obvious and the most unlikely risks will never be totally agreed, so this dispute may indeed go on for ever. Encouraging thought, isn't it? We'll just have to use our cars - vehicles that are a lot less safe than taking a train.

An excellent post. Yes, there's a risk that the last train will be cancelled if there's no guard (although that should very rarely happen on a properly staffed railway with adequate spare cover!). If there's no absolute requirement for a guard, it will run without a guard on far more occasions that it would otherwise have been cancelled on - it's inevitable, especially given Northern's (yes, I know that the train in your specific example isn't Northern's) chronic short-staffing. Why would they, as a business with a duty to their shareholders, pay overtime to cover work that they can get away without covering?

I certainly wouldn't want to be on my own, incapacitated or otherwise, on my own with a load of drunken passengers on that last train on a Saturday evening (or a Wednesday, when it always seems popular!), stuck in the middle of Cowburn Tunnel or in the woods that you mention. It doesn't have to be a fallen tree, it could be a routine failure, or damage after hitting a sheep - anything. Whilst the driver's out trying to do what needs to be done, for however long, the passengers would have to be left to their own devices.

It doesn't need to be how you portray it. That 'thin edge' is quite an understandable concern but if the 'exceptional circumstance' results in, say, a £5,000 fine on the TOC it might stop them trying to use it too often.

If there was a such a penalty, then the "exceptional circumstances" clause might be more convincing!

Secondly if there is one thing that TOCs love it is money and they know that the best way to extract as much money as possible from passengers is to make sure that you have the on-board person who is completely centered on doing that side of the role instead of running off every few minutes to open and close the doors.

Southern have already learned that the on-board person has to run off every few minutes anyway, not to open and close the doors but merely to observe the platform - because otherwise any wheelchair users wishing to board will probably be left on the platform. If they're having to go off and do that, there's no benefit really to them not closing the doors and dispatching the train themselves, even if the driver releases the doors.

 

[woodmally]

They absolutely do. If they go onto the Northern website there is no evidence that it's about anything else. It's silent completely on the cause of the industrial dispute.

Its also because people dont believe its for 'our safety'. Why would the guards lose money and inconvenience passengers for their safety?

 

[woodmally]

If I recall correctly that also happens on trains with guards.

All life is a risk. The question is whether the level of risk is acceptable to the population at large.

In the view of the 1.37 billion people who use the London Underground each year which is purely DOO, the level of risk is clearly acceptable. Compared to most of the surface railway the perceived levels of risk are much higher with its narrow platforms, sometimes the very dense numbers of people and the restricted access and egress. Half of it is in tunnels which is not a natural environment - yet people still use it.

Some 1.7 billion passenger journeys are made by people using National Rail every year. Of these roughly 600 million are already made on DOO trains.

I fail to understand why is there such a storm in a teacup about extension of DOO to some of the Northern network.

The storm is the RMT not wanting to lose their membership base. They know that although jobs will be guaranteed ie no loses Northern won't recruit as much. That's why they are using the 'our safety' argument. They forget to mention the tube is DOO.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I've thought of something. Have a guard and an OBS. The guard can do the doors and check tickets and the OBS can sell tickets and assist passengers. On a coupled train without end gangways, the guard can be in one unit and the OBS in another.

 

[pemma]

I've thought of something. Have a guard and an OBS. The guard can do the doors and check tickets and the OBS can sell tickets and assist passengers. On a coupled train without end gangways, the guard can be in one unit and the OBS in another.

Wouldn't solve anything. If the guard is unavailable the RMT would still want the service cancelled, even if an OBS is available.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Wouldn't solve anything. If the guard is unavailable the RMT would still want the service cancelled, even if an OBS is available.

Cross train them.

 

[furnessvale]

I've thought of something. Have a guard and an OBS. The guard can do the doors and check tickets and the OBS can sell tickets and assist passengers. On a coupled train without end gangways, the guard can be in one unit and the OBS in another.

I have thought of an even better idea. Let's have an OBS assigned to each passenger as he enters the station. The OBS can carry his bag, fetch him coffee, even read out his newspaper for him.

Solve any unemployment problem overnight but I don't hold out much chance of the rail network surviving a fortnight.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I have thought of an even better idea. Let's have an OBS assigned to each passenger as he enters the station. The OBS can carry his bag, fetch him coffee, even read out his newspaper for him.

Solve any unemployment problem overnight but I don't hold out much chance of the rail network surviving a fortnight.

I'm at the stage now where any idea to resolve this dispute is a good one.

 

[Tomnick]

Its also because people dont believe its for 'our safety'. Why would the guards lose money and inconvenience passengers for their safety?

Your safety is largely the responsibility of the memebr(s) of staff in charge of the train. Increasing the driver’s workload substantially not only puts your safety at risk, but also puts the driver at risk of criminal action, maybe as far as a manslaughter charge, if he makes a mistake or misjudgment under the increased pressure.

I've thought of something. Have a guard and an OBS. The guard can do the doors and check tickets and the OBS can sell tickets and assist passengers. On a coupled train without end gangways, the guard can be in one unit and the OBS in another.

Other than maybe on busy trains (where it’s not unknown to have a revenue person or a second guard booked to assist) or two units coupled with no gangway, what’s the point when the guard can adequately do all of the above?

 

[Chrisyd]

When do the RMT have to legally declare by if they wish to strike on Saturday 27th (I seem to recall they must give a certain notice period)?

 

[footprints]

When do the RMT have to legally declare by if they wish to strike on Saturday 27th (I seem to recall they must give a certain notice period)?

The RMT has to give two weeks' notice.

 

[woodmally]

Your safety is largely the responsibility of the memebr(s) of staff in charge of the train. Increasing the driver’s workload substantially not only puts your safety at risk, but also puts the driver at risk of criminal action, maybe as far as a manslaughter charge, if he makes a mistake or misjudgment under the increased pressure.


Other than maybe on busy trains (where it’s not unknown to have a revenue person or a second guard booked to assist) or two units coupled with no gangway, what’s the point when the guard can adequately do all of the above?

Well heres an idea then to stop more strikes. Since we've had 30 over "our safety" already and the rail companies have ignored it why not let DOO run its course. When there is the accident that the RMT are predicting will happen the RMT can say "Well we told you so didnt we and you didnt pay any attention." The public will be so horrified that the RMT were right and loss of life. The company would then rush to reintroduce guards with immediate effect.

Why wont that happen. Well for two reasons mainly.
1) Its not about safety its about the reduction of the RMT power base.
2) DOO is safe we've had the tube running on it for years.

 

[CN75]

Southern have already learned that the on-board person has to run off every few minutes anyway, not to open and close the doors but merely to observe the platform - because otherwise any wheelchair users wishing to board will probably be left on the platform. If they're having to go off and do that, there's no benefit really to them not closing the doors and dispatching the train themselves, even if the driver releases the doors.

If an OBS closed the doors however, they would be ‘safety critical’ and require extra knowledge, health requirements and route competencies. The lack of these requirements means they can be flexible deployed wherever needed (hence a financial saving, and minimising a performance risk for the trains, without it costing the OBS anything).

Southern does cancel trains when an OBS is not available and it is not an exceptional circumstance. They occasionally have to explain it on their social media to angry customers.

 

[pemma]

Southern does cancel trains when an OBS is not available and it is not an exceptional circumstance. They occasionally have to explain it on their social media to angry customers.

ASLEF agreed a list of circumstances under which it's acceptable to operate a train with just a driver on board.

 

[scrapy]

Strike action confirmed for another 3 Saturday's up to 10th November now.

 

[Elecman]

I wonder how long before Northern Management bring the issue to a head by proactively cancelling all Sunday services thus depriving the striking guards of thier ability to make up lost wages by working OT on the Sundays?

 

[pemma]

I wonder how long before Northern Management bring the issue to a head by proactively cancelling all Sunday services thus depriving the striking guards of thier ability to make up lost wages by working OT on the Sundays?

Note that not providing services during industrial action is allowable but not providing services on Sunday when there's no industrial action or other factors outside of the control of the TOC isn't and is a breach of the franchise agreement. Unless Northern could somehow prove that trains not operating on Saturday meant trains were left out of position meaning Sunday cancellations were unavoidable.

 

[pemma]

Strike action confirmed for another 3 Saturday's up to 10th November now.

Can't see anything on the RMT's website or twitter feed yet. Although, I notice on their Twitter feed they've retweeted something from Andy McDonald and are following it up by attacking anyone who suggests they are aligned with Labour. If they want to distance themselves from the Labour Party maybe they should be retweeting tweets from non-Labour politicians as well? Is Corbyn led Labour still not left wing enough for the RMT?

I also notice the RMT's 'Role of The Guard' video features a guard in a traditional uniform on a GNER service. Have they bought up the lack of provision of a hat for Northern guards?

 

[Kite159]

Strike action confirmed for another 3 Saturday's up to 10th November now.

No surprise there

Sounds like they have still got the work experience kid running the Twitter account, how long before they make another "I can't believe they said that" tweet (worse than trying to say DOO will be like Greenfell (sp)

 

[Kite159]

I wonder how long before Northern Management bring the issue to a head by proactively cancelling all Sunday services thus depriving the striking guards of thier ability to make up lost wages by working OT on the Sundays?

Why punish the non-striking guards with the loss of pay by cancelling Sunday services? Some lines already operate at reduced frequency on Sundays at the moment due to staff unwilling to volunteer for shifts

 

[mde]

I've thought of something. Have a guard and an OBS. The guard can do the doors and check tickets and the OBS can sell tickets and assist passengers. On a coupled train without end gangways, the guard can be in one unit and the OBS in another.

Isn't that already in place at Northern on some services in the form of "Assistant Ticket Examiner" roles?

 

[Darandio]

Strike action confirmed for another 3 Saturday's up to 10th November now.

But our friend 'in the know' said this just wouldn't happen.

This is very true, but one thing I will point out is that there will be no strikes in November. This is so that guards can earn a full salary prior to xmas

Where did he go anyway?

 

[woodmally]

But our friend 'in the know' said this just wouldn't happen.



Where did he go anyway?

He made a schoolboy error. Same mistake I made. Failed to consider they would move to Saturday strikes so the can recoup losses by working Sundays. There by continuing strikes indefinitely without loss of earnings.

 

[142blue]

Three more Saturdays

27/10
03/11
10/11

 

[scrapy]

Note that not providing services during industrial action is allowable but not providing services on Sunday when there's no industrial action or other factors outside of the control of the TOC isn't and is a breach of the franchise agreement. Unless Northern could somehow prove that trains not operating on Saturday meant trains were left out of position meaning Sunday cancellations were unavoidable.

Industrial action shouldn't make any difference as units can always be moved empty stock. There are plenty of drivers sat around on Saturday nights and obtaining paths shouldn't be a problem.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Three more Saturdays

27/10
03/11
10/11

INB4 they strike during the Christmas Markets and torpedo public opinion.

 

[Robertj21a]

ASLEF agreed a list of circumstances under which it's acceptable to operate a train with just a driver on board.

Which seems to generally work well, and in the spirit agreed by all parties. A shame that the same approach isn't rolled out elsewhere.