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Which train type has best performance climbing the Lickey Incline?

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linuxlad7

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Which has a better performance up the Lickey, A TYPE 220 VOYAGER OR a 323

What about when the leaves fall? Im guessing that the 323s have a better distribution 0f powered and unpowered axles??

I gather the leaf fall timetable is now in operation for a couple of months on Cross City
 
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Journeyman

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Which has a better performance up the Lickey, A TYPE 220 VOYAGER OR a 323

What about when the leaves fall

323, I would have thought. There's a video of one going up it on YouTube, you'd barely notice you were climbing.
 

NoOnesFool

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I would guess a Class 220, because the power is distributed better, and also I'd imagine that they are higher powered than an inter-urban commuter train.
 

Ianno87

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323, I would have thought. There's a video of one going up it on YouTube, you'd barely notice you were climbing.

Tried a 323 up the incline for the first time the other week; it wasn't quite as sprightly as I'd expected (but way, way, way better than a 170 from a standing start!)
 

linuxlad7

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there are recent postings on youtube for a 323 and a 170 climbing Bromsgrove to
Barnt Green, but haven't found one for a voyager 220 yet (do XC even do stops at Bromsgrove any more)
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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323s are initially handicapped by the running brake test on starting from Bromsgrove.
Despite that, I reckoned an eventual 70mph uphill on the one 323 trip I have done.
Voyagers get a good run at the hill, so they would stay closer to the 80mph PSR limit.
 

swt_passenger

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there are recent postings on youtube for a 323 and a 170 climbing Bromsgrove to
Barnt Green, but haven't found one for a voyager 220 yet (do XC even do stops at Bromsgrove any more
AIUI they finished with the revised post-electrification EMU timetable - there were discussions about it at the time. I think all XC calls would normally have been 170s though?
 

alangla

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I'd love to see 2x86, an 88 or a 92 providing banking assistance to one of the heavy freights. That could potentially be impressive.
I know EWS did trials in the 2000s with 92s hauling HTAs over Beattock, believe the loco got a bit hot but it flew over the top
 

Laurencemcd

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Having been on both up the Incline, I’ve clocked a super voyager (from a running start) achieving no more than 60mph until the summit, and a 323 achieving no more than 63mph until the summit. So I’d probably say a 323 by a small margin. Both easily achieved 90mph by Barnt Green.
 
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ac6000cw

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Currently riding on a (late running) northbound 323 that managed 50mph as it passed over the A448 road, and nearly 65mph at the summit.
 
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ac6000cw

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I'd love to see 2x86, an 88 or a 92 providing banking assistance to one of the heavy freights. That could potentially be impressive.
I know EWS did trials in the 2000s with 92s hauling HTAs over Beattock, believe the loco got a bit hot but it flew over the top

Without being able to distribute the tractive effort throughout the train (like an MU train normally does), the acceleration will be limited by the maximum forces allowed within the train (e.g. coupler strength when pulling hard, and the risk of derailing wagons when pushing hard). If you've only got 2 miles to the summit, you need good acceleration get to a reasonable speed at the top from a standing start...

(Half a dozen 68s distributed along a 3000 tonne freight train might be a nice demonstration/test run though :D - I suspect 6 x 88s might just be a tad too much for the OHLE power supply to handle...;))
 
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DelW

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Currently riding on a (late running) northbound 323 that managed 50mph as it passed over the A448 road, and nearly 65mph at the summit.
To stretch a simile somewhat, Big Bertha's spirit must be looking down open-mouthed from the Great Scrapyard in the Sky. I wonder if she ever reached that speed even going down the incline?
It's possible I saw Big Bertha in childhood as my dad took me to visit Blackwell on occasions. However I'd have been under four years old when she was withdrawn, and I don't have any memories earlier than the pannier tanks, which I do remember quite clearly, particularly all the whistle signals as they dropped off at the top and crossed over to run back to Bromsgrove.
 

ac6000cw

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To stretch a simile somewhat, Big Bertha's spirit must be looking down open-mouthed from the Great Scrapyard in the Sky.

I'm sure it is :smile: - just like all those steam banking engines from Shap (where post-electrification, passenger trains had to start slowing down for the speed restriction at the summit!)

I wonder if she ever reached that speed even going down the incline?

Given the much lower speed restriction at the base of the incline in those days, and the limited braking power available as a light engine, I suspect she would have been completely giddy even at 30 mph :D
 

linuxlad7

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I'm sure it is :smile: - just like all those steam banking engines from Shap (where post-electrification, passenger trains had to start slowing down for the speed restriction at the summit!)



Given the much lower speed restriction at the base of the incline in those days, and the limited braking power available as a light engine, I suspect she would have been completely giddy even at 30 mph :D

Is the regen braking on the 323s helping on the Lickey now we're well into the leafy season?
 
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atillathehunn

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323s are initially handicapped by the running brake test on starting from Bromsgrove.
Despite that, I reckoned an eventual 70mph uphill on the one 323 trip I have done.
Voyagers get a good run at the hill, so they would stay closer to the 80mph PSR limit.
Sorry if I am missing something obvious but why does the 323 need a brake test while other trains do not?
 

XDM

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Re the running brake test starting uphill from Bromsgrove.

Only about half the TOCS mandate a running brake test.
For example Southern, South eastern, Scotrail, & South West trains do not. (correct me if wrong, but I have checked with former colleagues)

Someone at my old company calculated it costs about 75p in electricity each time it is done per 12 car train, plus about 10 secs delay per train A huge sum over a year for a whole TOC. If you do a full cost benefit analysis the cost of passenger time wasted is vast too.

Only a madman would say don't do it if it needed, but none of the millions of running brake tests done since they came into vogue years ago has revealed a brake failure - so why do many companies still mandate their drivers to do it.
Do they have money & other people's time to burn?

If West Midland still insist on running brake tests why not get up to near the top of Lickey & then burn off 5 mph in notch two.
The effect is less costly & if for the first time ever since they were introduced that there was a failure, there is a well known emergency back up system to stop the train. It is pointless!
 

43096

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Re the running brake test starting uphill from Bromsgrove.

Only about half the TOCS mandate a running brake test.
For example Southern, South eastern, Scotrail, & South West trains do not. (correct me if wrong, but I have checked with former colleagues)

Someone at my old company calculated it costs about 75p in electricity each time it is done per 12 car train, plus about 10 secs delay per train A huge sum over a year for a whole TOC. If you do a full cost benefit analysis the cost of passenger time wasted is vast too.

Only a madman would say don't do it if it needed, but none of the millions of running brake tests done since they came into vogue years ago has revealed a brake failure - so why do many companies still mandate their drivers to do it.
Do they have money & other people's time to burn?

If West Midland still insist on running brake tests why not get up to near the top of Lickey & then burn off 5 mph in notch two.
The effect is less costly & if for the first time ever since they were introduced that there was a failure, there is a well known emergency back up system to stop the train. It is pointless!
It is even more pointless on a modern EMU with dynamic (rheostatic and/or regenerative) braking. All that a running brake test does then is activate the dynamic brake. Which when you think about it, is just proving that the traction motors work - but given that you have to be moving to do a running brake test, you already know that!
 

Bayum

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Re the running brake test starting uphill from Bromsgrove.

Only about half the TOCS mandate a running brake test.
For example Southern, South eastern, Scotrail, & South West trains do not. (correct me if wrong, but I have checked with former colleagues)

Someone at my old company calculated it costs about 75p in electricity each time it is done per 12 car train, plus about 10 secs delay per train A huge sum over a year for a whole TOC. If you do a full cost benefit analysis the cost of passenger time wasted is vast too.

Only a madman would say don't do it if it needed, but none of the millions of running brake tests done since they came into vogue years ago has revealed a brake failure - so why do many companies still mandate their drivers to do it.
Do they have money & other people's time to burn?

If West Midland still insist on running brake tests why not get up to near the top of Lickey & then burn off 5 mph in notch two.
The effect is less costly & if for the first time ever since they were introduced that there was a failure, there is a well known emergency back up system to stop the train. It is pointless!

And find out there are problems with the brakes whilst either still climbing, or even blocking the Lickey if a problem is identified? At least at Bromsgrove the test is done before joining the main line and is less likely to cause trouble there should anything be found.
 

yorkie

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And find out there are problems with the brakes whilst either still climbing, or even blocking the Lickey if a problem is identified? At least at Bromsgrove the test is done before joining the main line and is less likely to cause trouble there should anything be found.
Bromsgrove station is on the main line.
 

big all

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to be fair a running brake test tells you little unless somthing is very out
an experienced driver will know without a running brake test when the brakes are good a bit poor very poor or excellent without thinking
years ago i left victoria after coupling a 4epb to another 4epd i stopped at battersea ok on leaving i noticed lack off power so off overload reset and open up again still sluggish but kept going now any experianced driver will know what will happen at clapham juction without even thinking which will be proven 10m into the braking zone for clapham jct
any one like to hazard a guess at the cause :D
 

Fincra5

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Re the running brake test starting uphill from Bromsgrove.

Only about half the TOCS mandate a running brake test.
For example Southern, South eastern, Scotrail, & South West trains do not. (correct me if wrong, but I have checked with former colleagues)

Someone at my old company calculated it costs about 75p in electricity each time it is done per 12 car train, plus about 10 secs delay per train A huge sum over a year for a whole TOC. If you do a full cost benefit analysis the cost of passenger time wasted is vast too.

Only a madman would say don't do it if it needed, but none of the millions of running brake tests done since they came into vogue years ago has revealed a brake failure - so why do many companies still mandate their drivers to do it.
Do they have money & other people's time to burn?

If West Midland still insist on running brake tests why not get up to near the top of Lickey & then burn off 5 mph in notch two.
The effect is less costly & if for the first time ever since they were introduced that there was a failure, there is a well known emergency back up system to stop the train. It is pointless!

We do have to do Running Brake Tests on SN. Our PDP says "At least 30mph", unlike the rulebook doesn't specify a speed. We also have to do a RTB prior/ on the start of a steep falling gradient.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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The relative frequency with which units are carded for 'poor brake' - admittedly DMUs I'm my experience - proves in my mind the value of the running test. If nothing else, it calibrates the driver's expectation to the units performance and helps prevent any overshoot at the first stop location encountered, especially in bad weather or with poor rail head conditions.
 

142Pilot

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The relative frequency with which units are carded for 'poor brake' - admittedly DMUs I'm my experience - proves in my mind the value of the running test. If nothing else, it calibrates the driver's expectation to the units performance and helps prevent any overshoot at the first stop location encountered, especially in bad weather or with poor rail head conditions.


Correct.

The running brake test is for me to judge how well/badly the train is going to stop, and allows me to judge where I am likely to start braking for the more difficult stations/speed restrictions.
 

ComUtoR

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Only about half the TOCS mandate a running brake test.
For example Southern, South eastern, Scotrail, & South West trains do not. (correct me if wrong, but I have checked with former colleagues)

Mandatory at Southeastern.

Mandated by the Rule book too.

The Rule Book issue 6 said:
4.6 Carrying out a running brake test

You must test that the automatic brake is working properly by carrying out a running brake test. When you carry out a running brake test, you must do so from a
speed that is high enough for you to be sure that:

• the brake is operating effectively.
• the speed of the train is being reduced.

Locomotive-hauled trains and HSTs
You must carry out the running brake test at the first opportunity after beginning the journey. You must, if possible, also carry out a running brake test in good
time before approaching:

• the first stopping place
• a crossing place on a single line
• a steep falling gradient
• a terminus or dead-end platform line.

Multiple-unit trains
When working multiple-unit trains you must carry out the running brake test as shown in your train operating company instructions.
 

AndrewE

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Without being able to distribute the tractive effort throughout the train (like an MU train normally does), the acceleration will be limited by the maximum forces allowed within the train (e.g. coupler strength when pulling hard, and the risk of derailing wagons when pushing hard). If you've only got 2 miles to the summit, you need good acceleration get to a reasonable speed at the top from a standing start...)
I would have thought that adhesion would have been the limiting factor in most cases.
 

linuxlad7

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I would have thought that adhesion would have been the limiting factor in most cases.
which brings us back to regen braking especially on 323s and during leaf fall on the Lickey - is it a real effect this autumn?? It would be interesting to monitor a few traction motor currents...
 
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HLE

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The cross city always suffers with leaf fall.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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I don’t have a particularly mechanically minded brain, but I always struggle to imagine a unit sliding on greasy rails due to a regenerative brake application.
 
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