3tph on North Downs Line

[DelW]

For the last two weeks, SWT has been running at least six workings along the NDL for driver training - have these needed level crossing safety reviews?!

I've only just seen this post from a few weeks ago - did you really mean SWT (or, presumably, SWR)? I'm puzzled why they would be training drivers on a route they don't operate over, and what rolling stock was being used? I haven't ever seen a 158 or 159 on the NDL, in fact I don't think I've seen any "southern" stock on there since the demise of the Tadpoles (though that doesn't mean it hasn't happened of course).

 

[infobleep]

The Sunday timetable has long allocated four rather than three units to the Gatwick service.

If 3tph could justify allocating 7 units rather than 6 to provide a half hourly service you could potentially have a longer layover at each end.

However, Thameslink block platform 2 at Gatwick for most of the day and platforms 1 and 3 are needed for through trains so it isn't clear that a longer turn round at Gatwick could be accommodated without a trip to the holding sidings at Gatwick.

Moving the Reading to Gatwick service to xx20 looks like it might be possible if you could use an extra unit depending on SWR services - it would be tightly timed against the Bedford to Gatwick service at Redhill which stops all stations to Gatwick from Redhill.

This would solve the problem of two trains leaving Reigate for Redhill within four minutes and help with connections from Reigate to London Bridge. However, it would also lead to an uneven service pattern between Redhill and Gatwick.

How many units are allocated on a week day? Just three. Do they not have enough units to allow another on a week day?

They should have the staff as they recruited staff for the additional service during the week, as required by the franchise agreement. Or at least it is my understanding they did.

 

[JonathanH]

How many units are allocated on a week day? Just three. Do they not have enough units to allow another on a week day?

They should have the staff as they recruited staff for the additional service during the week, as required by the franchise agreement. Or at least it is my understanding they did.

Three on the Reading to Gatwick cycle, three on the Reading to Redhill cycle and an extra one for the Reading to Guildford peak extra workings.

This has been the case for ages and in theory it works with about 10-15 minutes at each end.

Tight, yes, but the route probably isn't a moneyspinner and would be even less so if you increased its train fleet cost by 33% for a unit to effectively be spare all day. Presumably track access charges for the holding sidings at Gatwick would be payable too.

 

[Matt Taylor]

I've only just seen this post from a few weeks ago - did you really mean SWT (or, presumably, SWR)? I'm puzzled why they would be training drivers on a route they don't operate over, and what rolling stock was being used? I haven't ever seen a 158 or 159 on the NDL, in fact I don't think I've seen any "southern" stock on there since the demise of the Tadpoles (though that doesn't mean it hasn't happened of course).

It's route refreshers for drivers, the MPVs are driven by SWR crew on that route.

 

[swt_passenger]

I've only just seen this post from a few weeks ago - did you really mean SWT (or, presumably, SWR)? I'm puzzled why they would be training drivers on a route they don't operate over, and what rolling stock was being used? I haven't ever seen a 158 or 159 on the NDL, in fact I don't think I've seen any "southern" stock on there since the demise of the Tadpoles (though that doesn't mean it hasn't happened of course).

It was answered at the time, (possibly in a different thread though) it’s NR Wessex route and SWR drive railhead treatment trains in the area based at Effingham Jn.

But in regard the question about level crossing downtime, the RHTT circuits are in the WTT permanently, so must already be allowed for in the calculations of train frequency.

 

[infobleep]

Three on the Reading to Gatwick cycle, three on the Reading to Redhill cycle and an extra one for the Reading to Guildford peak extra workings.

This has been the case for ages and in theory it works with about 10-15 minutes at each end.

Tight, yes, but the route probably isn't a moneyspinner and would be even less so if you increased its train fleet cost by 33% for a unit to effectively be spare all day. Presumably track access charges for the holding sidings at Gatwick would be payable too.

So is there only four trains on Sundays? Two to Redhill and two to Gatwick. I. E. two less than weekdays and if there is two less, how are they able to run the number of services they do on a Sunday compared to weekdays?

 

[JonathanH]

So is there only four trains on Sundays? Two to Redhill and two to Gatwick. I. E. two less than weekdays and if there is two less, how are they able to run the number of services they do on a Sunday compared to weekdays?

No, four on the Reading to Gatwick cycle on a Sunday and four on the daytime Reading to Redhill cycle.

It's just that fewer Turbos are needed elsewhere.

 

[infobleep]

No, four on the Reading to Gatwick cycle on a Sunday and four on the daytime Reading to Redhill cycle.

It's just that fewer Turbos are needed elsewhere.

So does the issue goes back to not enough turbos during the week then? If they were to run an additional train that would need additional rolling stock.

So I'd have though there might be less turbos avilable on a Sunday due to maintenance being needed. Clearly that is still enough left over, even if that be the case.

 

[DelW]

It's route refreshers for drivers, the MPVs are driven by SWR crew on that route.

Ah, thanks for the info', that hadn't occurred to me but it makes sense ready for leaf fall season.

 

[DelW]

It was answered at the time, (possibly in a different thread though) it’s NR Wessex route and SWR drive railhead treatment trains in the area based at Effingham Jn.

But in regard the question about level crossing downtime, the RHTT circuits are in the WTT permanently, so must already be allowed for in the calculations of train frequency.

Thanks for the answer and additional info'.

 

[JonathanH]

Absolutely dire service on the North Downs Line today.

Signal problem at Wokingham for much of the day - train failed between Chilworth and Gomshall this morning - less than half of the trains today have reached Gatwick

0932 Reading to Gatwick http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C40389/2018/11/19/advanced
23 minutes late at Chilworth, 102 minutes late at Gomshall

1732 Reading to Gatwick http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C40417/2018/11/19/advanced
27 minutes late from Reading, 58 minutes late at Earley, 78 minutes late at Gomshall, 87 minutes late at Dorking West

 

[FenMan]

Absolutely dire service on the North Downs Line today.

Signal problem at Wokingham for much of the day - train failed between Chilworth and Gomshall this morning - less than half of the trains today have reached Gatwick

0932 Reading to Gatwick http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C40389/2018/11/19/advanced
23 minutes late at Chilworth, 102 minutes late at Gomshall

1732 Reading to Gatwick http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C40417/2018/11/19/advanced
27 minutes late from Reading, 58 minutes late at Earley, 78 minutes late at Gomshall, 87 minutes late at Dorking West

Similar problems today (Tuesday). Sunday's engineering possession between Reading and Wokingham has plenty to answer for it seems. Also I'd like to know why so many services are incurring smallish, but irritating, delays between Redhill - Reigate - Dorking Deepdene.

The service has been unreliable since the end of May. Surely it's in the interest of GWR and NR to publish and publicise a recovery plan? A substantial chunk of the line's patronage will be lost if this continues for much longer. I certainly would not rely on it at the moment if catching a flight from Gatwick.

 

[Bishopstone]

Needed to travel from Gatwick to Guildford for a meeting, today. On paper, a journey where the train is price and time competitive with the car.

My intended train from Gatwick was ‘spun’ inbound at Redhill with little notice, which happens almost every time I use the North Downs Line and am under time pressure, rather than meandering around at leisure. So 30 minutes late, from the off.

Thameslink stopper to Redhill, then down and up the stairs with the suitcase brigade, to the absurd ‘Platform Zero’ with seating for three and little shelter. Grey, leaden skies. Cold.

The next Reading stopper was 15 minutes late inbound and didn’t reverse in a hurry. I’d given myself contingency time of 45 minutes, and used all of it.

Three trains an hour sounds ambitious when they can’t get one train an hour to Gatwick - a key traffic generator - reliably. It seems pretty obvious that the turn-around timings at Gatwick and Redhill are not conducive to reliability.

As an aside: if I was head honcho in Guildford, I would improve the aesthetics by closing at least one lane of the inner ring road, and widening the pavement so it wasn’t necessary to walk in single file from the station to the city centre. Understood that the locals and their politicians have many Range Rovers etc.

 

[big all]

just to add an ex drivers point off veiw on this
leave will hang on the trees with the tree recovering all the energy from the leave
2 things will speed up the fall off leaves frost and wind and a bit off rain to make the leaves stick to the rails often stirred up by the passage off trains
now i dont know the weather or temperature on tuesday or the rain or wind but i live in redhill
so without knowing can you tell me what the weather was when these delays happened ??

 

[JonathanH]

Leaf fall is clearly bad on the line and has always contributed to bad performance but the difference since May really seems to be down to how tight the path from Reigate to Gatwick and back is now.

The morning peak demand towards Reading requires trains to basically call all stations from Guildford to Wokingham. In the past, a few extra minutes were available because the trains had off-pattern departure times from Gatwick but that is no longer possible.

Delay towards Reading means a delay from Reading and before you know It, the path is missed to the airport.

Coupled with infrastructure problems and leaf fall it really isn't going well.

The trains are basically locked into
REI xx32 - RDH xx38-xx42 - GTW xx50-xx00 - RDH xx10-xx14 - REI xx18 (and with 3tph the same on the other side of the hour) and in theory that fits well with the spacing of the other trains between Redhill and Gatwick (eg from Redhill GWR xx42, TL xx55 / xx03, from Gatwick GWR xx00, TL xx03 / xx19) but there is no slack in the peak timetable at the Reading end. Also, if the train gets caught behind the xx03 from Gatwick to Bedford, it will be 10 minutes late or more from Redhill. Hence all the turnarounds at Redhill that are happening.

Scheduling of all trains through Redhill seems to be a hot topic with poor connections from Reigate and the Tonbridge line into the most desirable trains to London and people complaining about the time it takes to couple / uncouple Victoria services.

Reliability of the North Downs service and the best allocation of robust paths for it plays a part in that. However, that has to be seen against competing demands from the flows into Reading and Guildford as well.

It is interesting to see whether something can be done to turn around the reliability.

 

[big all]

to be honest reliability will not improve unless rail conditions can be improved you go from 100% grip to perhaps 40% in some areas this not only diminishes your overall confidence it causes you to be over cautios in case the adhesion is bad

 

[Bikeman78]

Reliability of the North Downs service and the best allocation of robust paths for it plays a part in that. However, that has to be seen against competing demands from the flows into Reading and Guildford as well.

It is interesting to see whether something can be done to turn around the reliability.

If it ever goes half hourly then the obvious solution is to increase the time at Gatwick to 40 minutes and shunt via the sidings. The Reading bound train could depart from platform 1 at Gatwick.

 

[JonathanH]

If it ever goes half hourly then the obvious solution is to increase the time at Gatwick to 40 minutes and shunt via the sidings. The Reading bound train could depart from platform 1 at Gatwick.

That doesn't sound cheap - if every train spent 40 minutes in the siding, not only do you have to pay for the use of two sidings at Gatwick (because one unit would arrive before the previous one departed), you are effectively increasing the number of units leased to put one in a siding all day.

3tph would already appear to put the number of units required up from 7 (3 fasts, 3 stoppers plus 1 peak) to 10 (6 fasts, 4 stoppers). That is a big increase in passengers needed to pay for the increase in costs already.

 

[JN114]

Turnaround time, while important isn't the main reason we terminate Gatwicks short at Redhill so often. If the GWR service is out of path it can have significant impact on pathing of Thameslink services through Gatwick which, rightly or wrongly NR Sussex tend to want to protect at all costs. If a train is 10-15 late departing Guildford it is not uncommon for the Sussex Train Running Controller to call up and instruct me to terminate the train at Redhill. Bottom line if NR tell me the train isn't to run past Redhill, it won't be running past Redhill - end of story.

 

[big all]

that used to be the case up to about 1995 or maybe beyond would sit in the siding watching planes land and if you get board walk to the airport for 10 mins then back again
used to arrive and depart redhill a few mins apart and pass about earlswood if my memory serves me correctly so about 50 mins at gatwick

 

[JonathanH]

that used to be the case up to about 1995 or maybe beyond would sit in the siding watching planes land and you get board walk to the airport for 10 mins then back again
used to arrive and depart redhill and pass about earlswood iff my memory serves me correctly so about 50 mins at gatwick

Different era - the Turbos are capable of being timed for a 3 hour round trip - the DMMUs would have struggled with that.

There were suggestions made on this forum that 769s might have better running characteristics on the route than the Turbos but guess proof will be in how they run in practice.

 

[big all]

that included turbos for a while at least i left redhill late 94 so dont know how it went after that

 

[JonathanH]

that included turbos for a while at least i left redhill late 94 so dont know how it went after that

Yes, I just looked at the 1994 timetable - the trains from Reading left around xx35 for Gatwick and arrived at Gatwick in about 83 minutes - no stop at Blackwater then - today they in theory achieve 76 minutes. Half hour turn around at Gatwick - run back to Reading and then it did the stopper on its next cycle from Reading. Presumably the turbos ran with spare time on the DMMU schedules until it got tightened up.

Problem of course was that the Gatwick trains needed to be scheduled for 3-car units and the stoppers for 2-car ones so interworking wasn't possible.

 

[Bikeman78]

That doesn't sound cheap - if every train spent 40 minutes in the siding, not only do you have to pay for the use of two sidings at Gatwick (because one unit would arrive before the previous one departed), you are effectively increasing the number of units leased to put one in a siding all day.

Do you want reliable or cheap? It's rarely possible to have both!

 

[Bikeman78]

Turnaround time, while important isn't the main reason we terminate Gatwicks short at Redhill so often. If the GWR service is out of path it can have significant impact on pathing of Thameslink services through Gatwick which, rightly or wrongly NR Sussex tend to want to protect at all costs. If a train is 10-15 late departing Guildford it is not uncommon for the Sussex Train Running Controller to call up and instruct me to terminate the train at Redhill. Bottom line if NR tell me the train isn't to run past Redhill, it won't be running past Redhill - end of story.

How strange, there are only four GTR trains per hour on the slow lines between Redhill and Gatwick, hardly saturated.

 

[JN114]

How strange, there are only four GTR trains per hour on the slow lines between Redhill and Gatwick, hardly saturated.

There's time-critical crossing moves from P1/2/3 to FL at Gatwick, I think they're more the issue.

 

[JonathanH]

There's time-critical crossing moves from P1/2/3 to FL at Gatwick, I think they're more the issue.

Yes, that ridiculous routing of the up Brighton to Bedford trains along the slow lines from Balcombe Tunnel Junction (to allow the Southern Brighton to Victoria to overtake at Three Bridges), then to the westernmost line south of Gatwick to stop in platform 3 (xx03-xx06) northbound.

Of course, a delayed Reading to Gatwick train may also delay the xx03 stopper from Gatwick via Redhill to Bedford and potentially, by first delaying the Bedford to Gatwick (xx52-xx55 at Redhill) the southbound train to Horsham (immediately behind at Gatwick) which would result in a short turnaround. The Bedford to Gatwick may also delay the up Brighton to Victoria Gatwick Express which stops on platform 1 at Gatwick (xx11-xx12). Operation of Gatwick seems far too complicated in the GTR timetable.

 

[big all]

Yes, I just looked at the 1994 timetable - the trains from Reading left around xx35 for Gatwick and arrived at Gatwick in about 83 minutes - no stop at Blackwater then - today they in theory achieve 76 minutes. Half hour turn around at Gatwick - run back to Reading and then it did the stopper on its next cycle from Reading. Presumably the turbos ran with spare time on the DMMU schedules until it got tightened up.

Problem of course was that the Gatwick trains needed to be scheduled for 3-car units and the stoppers for 2-car ones so interworking wasn't possible.

you say didnt stop at blackwater is that a misquote or perhaps a winter timetable 94 onwards alteration because apart from the extra saturday morning only oxford to gatwick and return services all trains called at blackwater as far as in remember ??
and yes it was very boring you could stop at all stations between guildford and redhill on a fast and be on time at gatwick because the timings where still dmu freindly
indeed all stations wokingham to guildford instead off blackwater and northcamp would be a 2-4 min penalty at gatwick but at least an enjoyable challenge

 

[FenMan]

Turnaround time, while important isn't the main reason we terminate Gatwicks short at Redhill so often. If the GWR service is out of path it can have significant impact on pathing of Thameslink services through Gatwick which, rightly or wrongly NR Sussex tend to want to protect at all costs. If a train is 10-15 late departing Guildford it is not uncommon for the Sussex Train Running Controller to call up and instruct me to terminate the train at Redhill. Bottom line if NR tell me the train isn't to run past Redhill, it won't be running past Redhill - end of story.

The backwash from the Thameslink upgrade is a significant loss of resilience in the North Downs timetable. Given the amount of airport traffic from Reading, and the growth potential if the service frequency were to be increased, there is a need for a rethink. The current issue of trains being turned back at Redhill together with a poor onward Redhill/Gatwick connection, adding 45 minutes to the end to end journey, undermines the rationale for the service.

 

[JN114]

The backwash from the Thameslink upgrade is a significant loss of resilience in the North Downs timetable. Given the amount of airport traffic from Reading, and the growth potential if the service frequency were to be increased, there is a need for a rethink. The current issue of trains being turned back at Redhill together with a poor onward Redhill/Gatwick connection, adding 45 minutes to the end to end journey, undermines the rationale for the service.

100% - you won’t get disagreements from me on that. It’s affecting change that is the challenge going forward.