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Greater Anglia Bombardier Aventras (Class 720): Technical discussion and introduction

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class387

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Ah of course I was looking at the branch stations, forgot about Wickford itself. It's a tricky one but they must have thought of this when specifying 120m long units. Unless of course they intend to run Southminster services direct from somewhere else (e.g. Shenfield in the off-peak, London in the peak). I haven't heard of any such plans though?
Could they not just use a 3/4 car Flirt in electric mode?
 

J@ke

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Why not keep a few 360s for the line? I don’t think they’re going anywhere else at the moment.
 

43096

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Aren't the numbers of flirts already quite slim compared to the DMU fleet that they are intended to replace?
Hard to say given the proposed service changes, but the current fleet of 26 sets (5 x 153, 9 x 156 and 12 x 170) is being replaced by 38 FLIRTs (14 x 3-car, 24 x 4-car).
 

Domh245

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Ah, I might have been getting my wires crossed then with the Aventra fleet. Quite a few people are saying that fleet is undersized compared to what it is replacing, but given that the flirt fleet has got that headroom you mention, I suppose it is feasible for them to cover some services.
 
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Hard to say given the proposed service changes, but the current fleet of 26 sets (5 x 153, 9 x 156 and 12 x 170) is being replaced by 38 FLIRTs (14 x 3-car, 24 x 4-car).

Bit off topic but does anyone know where the 156s and 153s are going? I presume either to northern or scotrail but nothing seems to have been said about them? Will they be scraped?
 

43096

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Bit off topic but does anyone know where the 156s and 153s are going? I presume either to northern or scotrail but nothing seems to have been said about them? Will they be scraped?
Nothing announced for either fleet. The 153s are not PRM compliant so as it stands they cannot operate after 31/12/19. The 156s, though, have been modified for PRM compliance - my money would be on them going to EMT (but that is just speculation).
 

chubs

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Why not keep a few 360s for the line? I don’t think they’re going anywhere else at the moment.

Because the bid is based around an entire new fleet of only two types, to reduce costs associated with multiple types and provide customers with a more modern up to date train.

They shouldn't keep some of the old stock on to entertain a few enthusiasts.
 

chubs

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Ah, I might have been getting my wires crossed then with the Aventra fleet. Quite a few people are saying that fleet is undersized compared to what it is replacing, but given that the flirt fleet has got that headroom you mention, I suppose it is feasible for them to cover some services.

The bimode FLIRT's are expected to do more than the current mishmash of DMU's currently do - for a start the decrepit old slam door set can finally go to it's rightful home at the scrappers and hopefully every service can run. Then there's the doubling of the Norwich - Cambridge service, and it's extension to Stansted Airport. Also some proposed through running to London from Norfolk coastal towns that really don't need it and already have good connections to Intercity services at Norwich or Ipswich.
 

Jala_150

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Do we know if the 720's will be used on the Southminster branch?

I have heard a couple of internal rumours regarding what stock will run the off peaks on the branch.

Flirts - although it’s a long way to get them to the Norwich Stadler Maintenance Depot

379s - makes sense as Ilford fitters are being TUPEd to Bombardier, and these units are currently maintained by bombardier at Ilford.
 

JohnMcL7

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Bit off topic but does anyone know where the 156s and 153s are going? I presume either to northern or scotrail but nothing seems to have been said about them? Will they be scraped?

5x 153's are meant to be going to Scotrail to be added to an existing DMU for cycle storage and additional luggage.
 

samuelmorris

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Because the bid is based around an entire new fleet of only two types, to reduce costs associated with multiple types and provide customers with a more modern up to date train.

They shouldn't keep some of the old stock on to entertain a few enthusiasts.
As far as I know the 360s can't run down there anyway, so they'd need to make adaptations to either the units or the line, neither I suspect would be justifiable. If any 360s are going to hang around for branch line work (which I'm sceptical of, the only units I expect may stay behind much beyond the new fleet introduction are the non-Renatus 321s) it would be on the routes they already serve - Clacton/Walton/Colchester Town.

As stated, there'll be some additional work for the 755s in the form of the direct London-Lowestoft service, the frequency increases in some of the rural services and extension down to Stansted.
Despite that though, the fleet that's undersized is the 720s as 66.5 'full train' lengths have to replace not just 71 in the current fleet, but also need to run the additional Norwich service and cover routes on the WA side previously inter-operated by 379s. Metre for metre there is more stock than before in the EMU fleet, but due to the current 8-car restriction on most non-Stansted WA services the practical outcome is actually less since, somehow, 240m trains have to replace 160m ones, and quite a lot of them. It remains to be seen how well hoping to get by with greater unit availability due to the simpler fleet works out. Certainly if all the old units are gone before the new stock beds in, cancellations due to lack of available units in 2020 will be rife. So far, even if the Flirts offer unmatched reliability the fact that the new fleet is predominantly Aventras, given their current poor track record, means the introduction of new units is certainly not going to be trouble-free.

I still think all the existing stock will go, but given there will probably less than 10 720/5s operating by 1st Jan 2020 (if any at all), the leases on the existing fleet will of course be extended. It's just a question of how many and how long for. If I were to put money on it, I'd say around 2023 for the withdrawal of the last 321s.
DMU-wise I think they'll probably be alright unless there is any delay in the 755 introduction. They don't need too many units to be ready to retire the Sprinters and LHCs and just run with 170s and 755s for a year or two until the 755s are to be replaced. This of course assumes they can keep the 170s long enough before they need to go to Wales, but that concern is for the Stadler thread.
 

F Great Eastern

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Because the bid is based around an entire new fleet of only two types, to reduce costs associated with multiple types and provide customers with a more modern up to date train.

No, they should keep them to prevent a substantial downgrade of capacity on a number of 8 car EMUs that are being replaced with 5 car EMUs and the fact that some lines that currently take 8 car EMUs can't even take 10 car versions so they have to be stuck with 5.

Also, the 360s are a modern train, as are the class 379s on the West Side, obviously 153/156/317/321 fleets don't fit that description, but the 360s and 379s certainly do.

They really are at least half a dozen, if not more 720s short of what they really need, so it would not surprise me at all if some stock ended up staying on in the short term to address the overcrowding and the obvious greater impact short forms will now have.

I'm not a great fan of the Renatus 321s at the moment truth be told, had my first journey on them last week and it wasn't a great experience but there is still to time to fix the issues with that project at the moment. I'd rather see them go and the 360s stay.
 
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samuelmorris

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The 153s may not see further use if they have the same structural problems the Northern units were reported to have, given the cost of PRM works for them. The 156s arguably shouldn't still be being used in the 2020s either but they will be due to the DMU deficit, have no doubt. Some TOC will definitely snap them up. 360s/379s and probably the Renatus 321s will all see work somewhere, it's just a question of where. As far as I know, no franchises that would make use of them are imminently due for renewal, and they are also PRM compliant (I believe) so there's less concern there about them being used, hence, they will. Given the delay to the 720 rollout there's no doubt about that whatsoever.
 

43096

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DMU-wise I think they'll probably be alright unless there is any delay in the 755 introduction. They don't need too many units to be ready to retire the Sprinters and LHCs and just run with 170s and 755s for a year or two until the 755s are to be replaced. This of course assumes they can keep the 170s long enough before they need to go to Wales, but that concern is for the Stadler thread.
They will not be able to retain the 170s, as they are part of the solution in Wales for PRM compliance from 01/01/20.
 

samuelmorris

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Isn't that deadline largely accepted as going to be missed though? Not that receiving the 170s late will help, but I can't see the 170s being released in time to move across, run driver training etc. and enter service by 01-Jan even if things with the 755s go fairly smoothly.
 

absolutelymilk

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Isn't that deadline largely accepted as going to be missed though? Not that receiving the 170s late will help, but I can't see the 170s being released in time to move across, run driver training etc. and enter service by 01-Jan even if things with the 755s go fairly smoothly.
Assuming things go to plan (a big if admittedly!), the first 755s come into service in May 2019, so if that means 170s are released from July onwards, that should be plenty of time for moving and driver training. Once driver training is complete, the moves over should be pretty straightforward and all 755s should be in service by the end of 2019, so assuming TfW can cope without all the 170s for a few weeks/months in early 2020, then they should be ok. Possibly GA will even release all their 170s before all the 755s come in, and continue using Sprinters to cover the gaps.
 

samuelmorris

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2 months between first introduction of an entirely new design to the UK market to withdrawing the first examples of the unit it replaces seems hopelessly optimistic. Even if the first unit enters service in May as predicted I'd suggest it's likely to be September before any 170s can really be dispensed with, maybe that will be enough to get the driver training done by the new year but even that seems tight.
 

fat_boy_pete

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The bimode FLIRT's are expected to do more than the current mishmash of DMU's currently do

I understand Flirts could be covering the Colchester Town shuttle (with or without through running from Sudbury-Marks Tey), the Colchester-Walton stopper, the Harwich-Manningtree shuttle and possibly Witham-Braintree if the timetable recast drops through running off-peak. That's 4 Class 720's made available to do runs to/from London. Think the Southminster line is too far away from Colchester Depot, which is the furthest south the Firts could stable, to make that feasible.
 

fat_boy_pete

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No, they should keep them to prevent a substantial downgrade of capacity on a number of 8 car EMUs that are being replaced with 5 car EMUs

You keep staying a 720/5 is a capacity downgrade on a 321 x 8 car formation, but looking at seat capacity that is incorrect. 321/3 & 321/4 have 256 seats each or 512 in a 8 car formation. a 720/5 has 540 seats. You focus on the train length ignoring that items such as 24m carriages, lack of 2 x First class compartments, lack of 2 x Cabs and 3 less areas for couplers/gangway doors, means that you can provide more seats in a 120m train length than the 160m train length of the 8 car. Yes a 720/5 only has ten (wider) vestibules for standing rather than 16 on a 321 x 8, but given GA have said all peak formations to/from London will be 10 car, do you really think (outside of disruption) that off peak 5 cars will have significant numbers of standees?
 

87015

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3+2 airline on 720s is a far, far worse proposition than 3+2 facing on 321s. It (720s) surely won’t get used without dwell time issues? 100+ seats per coach is into the realms of double decker stock we are told by so many could never work for dwell times through two doors.
 

fat_boy_pete

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3+2 airline on 720s is a far, far worse proposition than 3+2 facing on 321s. It (720s) surely won’t get used without dwell time issues? 100+ seats per coach is into the realms of double decker stock we are told by so many could never work for dwell times through two doors.
There are only 4 x 3 Airline rows in the unit. I agree they are daft, as that means practically 4 seats will be rarely used. All other 3 seats are in bays, so same as 321's/360's. Re dwell times, Bombardier and GA seem convinced wider doors are the answer. Time will tell who is right.
 

samuelmorris

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You keep staying a 720/5 is a capacity downgrade on a 321 x 8 car formation, but looking at seat capacity that is incorrect. 321/3 & 321/4 have 256 seats each or 512 in a 8 car formation. a 720/5 has 540 seats. You focus on the train length ignoring that items such as 24m carriages, lack of 2 x First class compartments, lack of 2 x Cabs and 3 less areas for couplers/gangway doors, means that you can provide more seats in a 120m train length than the 160m train length of the 8 car. Yes a 720/5 only has ten (wider) vestibules for standing rather than 16 on a 321 x 8, but given GA have said all peak formations to/from London will be 10 car, do you really think (outside of disruption) that off peak 5 cars will have significant numbers of standees?

It'll mostly be weekend services. There are plenty of weekend services running 8-cars that have large numbers of standing passengers today that will be worse with a 5-car unit as although seating capacity is similar, standing capacity will be greatly reduced. There are also some services adjacent to peaks (I don't think GA have yet specified when 'peak' begins and ends with regard to all services being 10-car) which will be very busy with a 5-car unit. Occupational hazard of running 5/10 rather than 4/8/12 even though I generally agree with it due to the reduction in wasted space.
I just think the number of units ordered is cutting it a bit fine, I would much rather have seen sufficient units ordered to fully replace existing 8-car peak services with 10-cars like-for-like disregarding the extra Norwich service. In total I imagine that's probably an extra 20 5-car units (or 10 5s and 5 10s) - that's a fair shortfall.
 

F Great Eastern

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You keep staying a 720/5 is a capacity downgrade on a 321 x 8 car formation, but looking at seat capacity that is incorrect.
And you keep mis-representing what I am saying and honestly I'm starting to ged fed up with it, since I mentioned capacity and not seating and you know that but you continue to mis-represent me and make disingenuous posts.

You seem to be obsessed by getting as many passengers seated as possible, at the expense of leaving people behind. I'd rather have a slightly increased chance of standing and be sure of getting on the train, than a slightly increased chance of getting a seat and a risk of not being able to board.
321/3 & 321/4 have 256 seats each or 512 in a 8 car formation. a 720/5 has 540 seats. You focus on the train length ignoring that items such as 24m carriages, lack of 2 x First class compartments, lack of 2 x Cabs and 3 less areas for couplers/gangway doors, means that you can provide more seats in a 120m train length than the 160m train length of the 8 car. Yes a 720/5 only has ten (wider) vestibules for standing rather than 16 on a 321 x 8,

An increase of 28 seats on a train that can carry somewhere close to 150 less standees is going to simply mean that a small number of people who have to stand now may get seats, whilst a bigger number of people who stand now, physically will be unable to board the train. That's not progress in my view.

Do you have any idea about the loadings of some of the 8 car services in peak, peak-shoulders and on Saturdays? Maybe you should go out there and try, since you show a complete lack of knowledge of loadings on services on the GE side of things and you're going to be in line for an awful shock soon when twitter is going to be full of people who are physically unable to board a train they were able to before. But as long as 28 more people can get a seat, who cares about the people who get left behind hey?
But given GA have said all peak formations to/from London will be 10 car, do you really think (outside of disruption) that off peak 5 cars will have significant numbers of standees?

GA do not have the fleet numbers on order to do what you are suggesting, unless they are going to start cutting frequency of services, or they are going to have exceptionally tight turn-arounds and almost zero room to cover any trains being taken out of service that will leave services short formed by 50% on a regular basis at peak time which will be a substantial downgrade for existing passengers.

The whole thing will end up with old stock being kept on to reduce overcrowding in the short-term with new stock ordered to top up the current orders. That's not my opinion, it's the opinion of 2 senior Railway people who know an awful lot more about running railways than I would. Abellio haven't ordered enough units and that's going to be painfully clear that they'll need the old stock to hang around longer in the next 18 months.
 
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samuelmorris

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The whole thing will end up with old stock being kept on to reduce overcrowding in the short-term with new stock ordered to top up the current orders. That's not my opinion, it's the opinion of 2 senior Railway people who know an awful lot more about running railways than I would. Abellio haven't ordered enough units and that's going to be painfully clear that they'll need the old stock to hang around longer in the next 18 months.

Agreed though I think the number of services leaving people behind is probably going to be fairly minimal based on my experience. What it will lead to, however, is far more crush-loaded shoulder-peak & weekend services temporarily until the '5 vs 8' services are assessed and rebalanced. Long-term I believe some shoulder peak services will still suffer unless new units are ordered but based on what I see now I don't think too many services will leave passengers behind outside times of disruption, where that will always happen.
 

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