Why do Pacers get allocated to the Hope Valley Stoppers?

[53703]

1949 from Manchester Pic to Sheffield is quite good for some Pacer action, all stations to Chinley and then Dore & Sheffield

 

[hooverboy]

Oh. I thought they did, thought they had the same engine but around 2/3 the weight. Perhaps not then.

from memory, pacer is 25 Tonnes per car (225BHP engine per car)
150 sprinter is 35 Tonnes per car(285BHP engine per car)

not sure on the pacer whether one or two powered axles per car.If it's two then I wouldn't expect to see much difference in acceleration.

 

[NorthWestRover]

Morecambe to Leeds must be a blast on a 142 (yes I know technically you can change at Lancaster & Manchester)! I've never tried it myself, its on my 'to-do' list somewhere between walking over hot coals & hitting myself repeatedly with a frying pan...

I did Lancaster to Skipton on a 144 in early September. I quite enjoyed it.

 

[bionic]

You'll miss em when they're gone!

There'll be a thread popping up on here soon enough lamenting their demise. Pacer-Nostalgia will become a thing and people will hark back to these as the "good old days".

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

My experience of Pacers is they are marginally faster than a Sprinter in the initial acceleration ranges. Overall (ie up to 75mph) they are marginally slower, so it must be something to do with the gearing.

As a minor aside - the Bristol-Severn Beach Line has never performed as well since 143s were removed from the Bristol area. Some of the stations are barely 1/4 mile apart and the professional driving policy for a 150 is to notch up gradually, whereas 143s always seemed to be driven in a more ‘traditional’ binary manner. Despite this, the sectional timings for both are identical. (It has since got considerably worse using Turbos, but that’s due to different reasons.)

 

[pemma]

Comllete speculation, but don’t they have better acceleration than most other DMUs? Which would be useful for that line which is tightly timed with the fast trains.

No their acceleration is inferior to 75mph 150s and Pacers are more likely to subject to delays due to 'slippery rails' at this time of the year. On Mid-Cheshire services if you get a 150 on a Manchester bound service and it leaves Navigation Road on time then there's a very high chance it'll arrive at Edgely Junction early and have to wait (that section has 75mph running and a short section where the train has to slow down to 50mph before speeding back up again), if it's a Pacer it'll likely arrive at Edgely Junction on time and be allowed straight through, unless another service is running behind schedule. Then if the Pacer's overcrowded it's acceleration will be even worse than usual.

 

[pemma]

Nice big windows for passengers to appreciate Mam Tor from.

Like a number of Northern services, it looks like a "long" distance service but is really for short/medium journeys that a Pacer is reasonably suited for (you'd have to be daft or very unlucky to sit on one all the way from Sheffield to Manchester - or travelling vv early/late - I remember coming back from Manchester Airport early on a Sunday morning and sitting on a Pacer back to Sheffield with the fallout from some big gig/rave/zombie infestation that had obviously taken place in Manchester the previous evening)

(I mean, it'd be nice if they allocated 333s but the lack of wires is probably a reason for that)

Even when I was given a free Northern day pass for disruption and decided to travel from Knutsford to Lincoln I purchased an additional Stockport to Sheffield ticket so that I could use TPE/EMT meaning the overall journey time wasn't excessive.

I don't think Pacers on Hope Valley is an issue by itself but if you're travelling to say Edale and have already spent an hour on a Pacer before you board a Hope Valley service at Manchester or Sheffield then it makes the train seem an unattractive option.

 

[pemma]

My experience of Pacers is they are marginally faster than a Sprinter in the initial acceleration ranges. Overall (ie up to 75mph) they are marginally slower, so it must be something to do with the gearing.

As a minor aside - the Bristol-Severn Beach Line has never performed as well since 143s were removed from the Bristol area. Some of the stations are barely 1/4 mile apart and the professional driving policy for a 150 is to notch up gradually, whereas 143s always seemed to be driven in a more ‘traditional’ binary manner. Despite this, the sectional timings for both are identical. (It has since got considerably worse using Turbos, but that’s due to different reasons.)

I notice you are comparing 143s to 150s. I don't know how they compare to 142s but my experience of 142s and 144s are very different - 144s being all round better - less squealing, less bouncing, better acceleration, less drafty, less prone to leaks etc.

 

[Killingworth]

A few months ago a I asked a Hope Valley driver his opinion of 142 Pacers and 150s. His view was that in general Pacers are very slightly better on performance on that line as they start quicker from the short stops, but are a very hard ride when you have to sit in one for hours! Maybe a driver contributor could confirm if that was a general view or just one man's opinion?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even when I was given a free Northern day pass for disruption and decided to travel from Knutsford to Lincoln I purchased an additional Stockport to Sheffield ticket so that I could use TPE/EMT meaning the overall journey time wasn't excessive.

I don't think Pacers on Hope Valley is an issue by itself but if you're travelling to say Edale and have already spent an hour on a Pacer before you board a Hope Valley service at Manchester or Sheffield then it makes the train seem an unattractive option.

Possibly so, but a lot of passengers to Edale, Bamford and Hathersage are outdoorsy people who don't seem to care about roughing it. Certainly having used Saturday and Sunday morning trains they are full of happy people off on a day out not really caring about the state of the rolling stock.

Assuming there *are* Pacers I can't see a more suitable place for them, really. Once the Pacers are gone I reckon it'll become a solid 150 route which again is no great issue, though the view out will be inferior to the Pacer.

 

[142Pilot]

142's on a dry rail are quicker off the start than 150/153/155/156. For short stoppers they seem to get into the 30/40 mph engage quicker.

Above this then the others seem to get up to speed quicker.

They are uncomfortable for anything over an hour in the seat.

 

[hooverboy]

My experience of Pacers is they are marginally faster than a Sprinter in the initial acceleration ranges. Overall (ie up to 75mph) they are marginally slower, so it must be something to do with the gearing.

As a minor aside - the Bristol-Severn Beach Line has never performed as well since 143s were removed from the Bristol area. Some of the stations are barely 1/4 mile apart and the professional driving policy for a 150 is to notch up gradually, whereas 143s always seemed to be driven in a more ‘traditional’ binary manner. Despite this, the sectional timings for both are identical. (It has since got considerably worse using Turbos, but that’s due to different reasons.)

the turbos are primarily designed for semi-regional services, not for urban.

the gearing from the engine is different,hence why crap timings.
not designed for a full on duty cycle of 50% of their time spent in hard acceleration for 2 or 3 minute bursts,along with hard braking 2 or 3 minutes later.
the 172's might cut it, but the 170/171's won't

 

[Killingworth]

Possibly so, but a lot of passengers to Edale, Bamford and Hathersage are outdoorsy people who don't seem to care about roughing it. Certainly having used Saturday and Sunday morning trains they are full of happy people off on a day out not really caring about the state of the rolling stock.

Assuming there *are* Pacers I can't see a more suitable place for them, really. Once the Pacers are gone I reckon it'll become a solid 150 route which again is no great issue, though the view out will be inferior to the Pacer.

Hope Valley users are happy to get any train and the promise of an hourly service fully honoured with Pacers 7 days a week would go down even better at present. Skip stopping is very confusing for passengers and crew alike. Saturday trains in particular are less cluttered with suitcases than heavy backpacks and bikes, but can be crammed so full folks may need to wait for the next service. (Northern and the RMT have solved that problem for now.)

 

[LowLevel]

It's a West side route and Pacers can't go to Buxton so there they land for better or for worse I guess - it's always been mostly 142s since the 101s finished.

 

[Class 170101]

TPE 185 to Piccadilly was full and we stood all the way. Hopefully by early 2019 these trains will be 6 carriages, subject to successful introduction of new trains and redeployment of displaced 185s.

Does that not depend upon if the 185s expand their operating area to include Nottingham?

 

[PeterY]

I enjoyed my recent pacer ride from Carnforth to Settle Junction. 60mph along jointed track but the scenery was fantastic. . They're a novelty for us southerners.

 

[John B]

I have done 3 return Leeds to Morecambe journeys this year (6 individual trips). Five of these have been on class 142, the other on a 144. I don't have a problem with the 142s. Large windows make excellent viewing and gives an airy feel. Certainly prefer to class 150 although entering Carnforth ( Morecambe bound) is a test for the eardrums.

 

[jizzer]

Pretty sure Pacers have a smaller engine.

142 has a 225 hp engine an 150/156 has 285 hp engine

 

[NewClee153]

hello!

I get the stopper along the Hope Valley line most days and I was wondering - is there a particular reason why this line is infested with Pacers? I wasn’t intending to turn this into another thread on the screeching old contraptions but it seems that the majority of trains on this line are Pacers. Is there a technical reason for this?

I used to get the train in from Warrington and it could be any combination of old museum pieces from northern but this line is mainly unidimensional, apart from the odd 150.

You would think the pacers would be a little more spread out

I know when I used the Hope Valley line last year, class 156s were used on Sundays, is this still the case?

 

[PHILIPE]

You would think the pacers would be a little more spread out

I know when I used the Hope Valley line last year, class 156s were used on Sundays, is this still the case?

They are spread out, there are so many of them. The Hope Valley Line is not operated just by Pacers

 

[NewClee153]

They are spread out, there are so many of them. The Hope Valley Line is not operated just by Pacers

I’m aware of this. It is, however, predominantly pacer

 

[Killingworth]

Does that not depend upon if the 185s expand their operating area to include Nottingham?

TPE hope to get Liveroool - Nottingham but the East Midlands tendering talks about that being retained until 2021 - when the Hope Valley Capacity scheme should have been finished - some hope? It's not a done deal. That route could go to Northern or TPE. The third fast route has also to be decided and mapped, probably to Northern, or TPE. TPE may expect to get one new route, and Northern the other, but which gets what? Nobody knows yet.

 

[Killingworth]

I’m aware of this. It is, however, predominantly pacer

That impression may depend on time and day of travel. Having observed the line quite closely it seems to be roughly 50:50. Like my journeys this week were one Pacer(same one used twice) 150 and a 156.

 

[Amstel]

According to today’s Daily Telegraph in the column Weather Watch by Joe Shute the train he was on in Derbyshire on Tuesday went slowly and they were told it was “because of high winds”. Do Pacers blow over went it’s windy?

 

[Bletchleyite]

According to today’s Daily Telegraph in the column Weather Watch by Joe Shute the train he was on in Derbyshire on Tuesday went slowly and they were told it was “because of high winds”. Do Pacers blow over went it’s windy?

More the risk of trees on the line.

 

[Killingworth]

More the risk of trees on the line.

Bring back steam trains. Lineside fires were a regular feature ensuring much of the vegetation we see today would have been burned off!

 

[Class 170101]

TPE hope to get Liveroool - Nottingham but the East Midlands tendering talks about that being retained until 2021 - when the Hope Valley Capacity scheme should have been finished - some hope? It's not a done deal. That route could go to Northern or TPE. The third fast route has also to be decided and mapped, probably to Northern, or TPE. TPE may expect to get one new route, and Northern the other, but which gets what? Nobody knows yet.

But if TPE do presumably then the Nottingham to Liverpool section of the route becomes Class 185 operated as mainly 6 carriage trains. Does that leave any Class 185s left for strengthening Cleethorpes to Manchester service?

 

[NoOnesFool]

hello!

I get the stopper along the Hope Valley line most days and I was wondering - is there a particular reason why this line is infested with Pacers? I wasn’t intending to turn this into another thread on the screeching old contraptions but it seems that the majority of trains on this line are Pacers. Is there a technical reason for this?

I used to get the train in from Warrington and it could be any combination of old museum pieces from northern but this line is mainly unidimensional, apart from the odd 150.

Pacers are designed for local stopping services. Even though Sheffield to Manchester is quite a considerable distance, the Hope Valley stoppers tend to patronise those travelling between Sheffield and the Peak District and New Mills to Manchester. Also, these services are operated around Newton Heath, which has to prioritize other units to the Buxton Line, as 142s can't run on that line, due to height clearance issues. I find 142s are great for taking in views of the Hope Valley, and it's an improvement on the 101s that operated that route, as those of us over 20 will remember.

 

[_toommm_]

Pacers are designed for local stopping services. Even though Sheffield to Manchester is quite a considerable distance, the Hope Valley stoppers tend to patronise those travelling between Sheffield and the Peak District and New Mills to Manchester. Also, these services are operated around Newton Heath, which has to prioritize other units to the Buxton Line, as 142s can't run on that line, due to height clearance issues. I find 142s are great for taking in views of the Hope Valley, and it's an improvement on the 101s that operated that route, as those of us over 20 will remember.

It's not height issues, it's power issues (or lack thereof)

 

[NoOnesFool]

It's not height issues, it's power issues (or lack thereof)

Oh really? Someone told me that it was because they have components on the roof (like Leyland National buses) that raise them up to 13 foot. Are there some steep gradients around Furness Vale?I'm not overly familiar with that line, to be honest.