Keolis Amey Wales - Future Rolling Stock

[Gareth Marston]

What is the fascination of end doors?? I think end doors are a terrible idea myself. Having them at 3rds is so much better. I’ve been stood waiting for passengers to get off and back on again for over 12 minutes on a 175. This has a massive knock on effect. I don’t care how the train “feels” inside. Get people on and off quickly and to their destination. The train itself isn’t important to most people.

Quite frankly no one will notice if you get a 4/5 car formation going into the big city's instead of a 2 car/ 3 car. Referring back to my daughters journey home yesterday there was no comment from her re door positions on TPE 185's just negative ones about gross overcrowding on TfW 158's.

 

[trainophile]

It's frustrating if you choose to wait to board at what turns out to be the "wrong" door - one where several people are retrieving huge suitcases from the luggage racks, often with no sense of urgency, and/or there's a couple of buggies being offloaded by young mums with their hands full of toddlers. It's annoying to still be standing on the platform when people are boarding via the door at the other end, and filling up the carriage. An extra door in the middle would help to alleviate this sort of situation.

 

[PHILIPE]

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[PHILIPE]

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[Bletchleyite]

I think that when they appear, that people will wonder why they have ordered new trains that are worse than the 175’s. Even the 158’s have end of coach doors

Or maybe they'll think "aren't these new trains great, much easier to get on and off without pushing past people"?

I think there really is a need to get over this door position prejudice thing. There are big advantages of the doors-at-thirds layout for regional express services, and they do not dictate which style of seat is to be installed.

 

[uxm]

Or maybe they'll think "aren't these new trains great, much easier to get on and off without pushing past people"?

I think there really is a need to get over this door position prejudice thing. There are big advantages of the doors-at-thirds layout for regional express services, and they do not dictate which style of seat is to be installed.

The gangways and high load doors are essential and were part of the franchise agreement, any interiors that have been shown are created by artists and are not accurate.

 

[squizzler]

What is the fascination of end doors?? I think end doors are a terrible idea myself. Having them at 3rds is so much better. I’ve been stood waiting for passengers to get off and back on again for over 12 minutes on a 175. This has a massive knock on effect. I don’t care how the train “feels” inside. Get people on and off quickly and to their destination. The train itself isn’t important to most people.

I agree. I don't travel as much by train as many here, but I have ridden turbostars during the winter and don't remember it the train trip continually blowing hot and cold. In fact I was frequently catching a bus from mid wales to Hereford and then taking the (usually turbostar) onwards through the Malverns and much more acutely remember riding quite modern busses that just refused to warm up -whether by accident or design - much more than any perceived thermal discomfort in the train. I was amazed how cold the busses could be since it would do no favours to the OAP segment of their market - and that deficiency couldn't be blamed on the number or position of the doors.

On a freezing february day, the passengers on a station like Tywyn don't stand about in the gusts blowing in from the Irish sea in Hawaiian shirts and shorts in anticipation of the 158's warm saloon accessed through a vestibule. Trust me, the platforms in mid wales are sparse, and its always nice to get on any train.

It will be interesting to find out user experiences on the modern Hitachi AT200 and Aventra families which use underfloor heating. This is radiant heat (infra-red like a bar fire) and heats objects not the air, so ingress of cold air should be less problematic to comfort than with systems that rely on ducted warm air.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It will be interesting to find out user experiences on the modern Hitachi AT200 and Aventra families which use underfloor heating. This is radiant heat (infra-red like a bar fire) and heats objects not the air, so ingress of cold air should be less problematic to comfort than with systems that rely on ducted warm air.

The last train I recall going on in recent years that relied on ducted warm air was the Caledonian Sleeper Mk2 seated coach which has a heating system I have never seen elsewhere (and is really rather ineffective). PEPs *may* also do, I forget.

Near enough everything else uses radiators along the bodyside at ankle level. The ducts only blow in cooled air from the aircon.

The advantage of underfloor is to avoid that radiator taking up legroom and cooking your ankles, though I'll admit I quite like putting my foot up on them.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I agree. I don't travel as much by train as many here, but I have ridden turbostars during the winter and don't remember it the train trip continually blowing hot and cold. In fact I was frequently catching a bus from mid wales to Hereford and then taking the (usually turbostar) onwards through the Malverns and much more acutely remember riding quite modern busses that just refused to warm up -whether by accident or design - much more than any perceived thermal discomfort in the train. I was amazed how cold the busses could be since it would do no favours to the OAP segment of their market - and that deficiency couldn't be blamed on the number or position of the doors.

On a freezing february day, the passengers on a station like Tywyn don't stand about in the gusts blowing in from the Irish sea in Hawaiian shirts and shorts in anticipation of the 158's warm saloon accessed through a vestibule. Trust me, the platforms in mid wales are sparse, and its always nice to get on any train.

It will be interesting to find out user experiences on the modern Hitachi AT200 and Aventra families which use underfloor heating. This is radiant heat (infra-red like a bar fire) and heats objects not the air, so ingress of cold air should be less problematic to comfort than with systems that rely on ducted warm air.

Welshpool the second busiest station on the Cambrian only has a bus shelter and with westbound and eastbound trains departing within a few minutes of each other passengers for both directions have to compete with each other.

 

[K.o.R]

An extra door in the middle would help to alleviate this sort of situation.

Ooh, just like the old Mk1s and Mk2s used to have!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ooh, just like the old Mk1s and Mk2s used to have!

Or maybe the doors could go, you know, at thirds? The middle is a bad place because it can mean a very large gap at curved platforms; even the single-doored FLIRT vehicles don't have it right in the middle.

 

[squizzler]

It's frustrating if you choose to wait to board at what turns out to be the "wrong" door - one where several people are retrieving huge suitcases from the luggage racks, often with no sense of urgency, and/or there's a couple of buggies being offloaded by young mums with their hands full of toddlers. It's annoying to still be standing on the platform when people are boarding via the door at the other end, and filling up the carriage. An extra door in the middle would help to alleviate this sort of situation.

My experience is that on occasions when I have large luggage or a bicycle at the end of the carriage, I cannot access it to make it ready for a quick departure because the aisle and vestibules are full of people with little or no baggage who have decided to queue up for the doors as soon as the suburbs of whatever town you alight at came into view. Still, if there were wide doors at thirds positions - according to forum wisdom - the problem would be worse when approaching stations because aisles would be all full of people getting up to pull on their coats before the doors open to allow what in their world is an omnipresent blizzard through the coach, and again on leaving the stop as everybody takes their jackets off again.

 

[craigybagel]

⅓ ⅔ doors seem to swallow crowds a lot better . I've carried out a passenger count on a 2 car 150 and counted more then 200 people on board. Despite these high numbers, I was still able to walk through the train to carry out said passenger count. If 200 people turn up for a 2 car 175 some of them are going to be left behind - despite having an extra 6 metres to play with.

 

[Meole]

An improved station provision at Welshpool is planned, the passenger increase is recent and due to the new hourly service.

 

[Envoy]

Having the doors at the ends of the coaches reduces the gap over which people have to step to the platform at curved stations and therefore increases safety.

So, someone travelling say from Manchester to Bristol gets a proper Inter City train (if you can call a Voyager that), running at high speeds and only stopping at major centres such as Birmingham and Cheltenham. Someone travelling a similar distance from Manchester to Cardiff will get a train with doors at thirds letting in the cold air and making numerous stops at rural stations such as Church Stretton and Craven Arms. (It is the same on the line from Birmingham to Cardiff where often overcrowded 2 and 3 coach 170’s with doors at thirds make numerous stops. This will even get worse when Worcester Parkway opens = so slower service and more over crowding). So, obvioulsy Cardiff is a less important place than Bristol and can be linked to major cities in England with trains that double up as rural stoppers rather than proper expresses.

I think that The Marches line could do with expresses as well as stoppers - especially if a new station were built at Caerleon. (It is desperately needed at Caerleon due to the poor road links with the M4). Perhaps the disused platform on the east side of Abergavenny station could be brought back in to use for stoppers from here to Cardiff? Abergavenny could also do with a car park serving the A465. As things stand, people are using the lay-byes and going down a bank to access the station from the east.

I note that Transpennine Express are getting rid of their 185’s (with doors at thirds) and switching to proper Inter City Trains such as the Hitachi 800’s for the longer distance runs to Scotland.

Mention has been made of the time it takes to off load/load passengers with end doors. Surely, this problem mainly arises due to the overcrowding? Hopefully, this will not be the case once sufficient capacity is provided? I can understand having doors at thirds on the frequent stopping services in the south Wales valleys.

 

[Dai Corner]

Holyhead is obviously a more important place than Manchester as not only will its trains to Cardiff have doors at the ends but they will carry a chef and silver service waiters and the noisy Diesel engine will be in its own vehicle at the end instead of under the floor.

They'll also miss out those minor stations like Craven Arms and Church Stretton.

 

[Gareth Marston]

An improved station provision at Welshpool is planned, the passenger increase is recent and due to the new hourly service.

1. The Town Council have drafted some plans and are looking for funding- calling it planned is perhaps stretching it a bit.
2. Passenger increase has been steady for nearly 20 years see ORR website.
   
3. Welshpool does not have an hourly service , 4 extra trains were introduced in May 15 giving it 12 trains a day.

 

[Chester1]

Having the doors at the ends of the coaches reduces the gap over which people have to step to the platform at curved stations and therefore increases safety.

So, someone travelling say from Manchester to Bristol gets a proper Inter City train (if you can call a Voyager that), running at high speeds and only stopping at major centres such as Birmingham and Cheltenham. Someone travelling a similar distance from Manchester to Cardiff will get a train with doors at thirds letting in the cold air and making numerous stops at rural stations such as Church Stretton and Craven Arms. (It is the same on the line from Birmingham to Cardiff where often overcrowded 2 and 3 coach 170’s with doors at thirds make numerous stops. This will even get worse when Worcester Parkway opens = so slower service and more over crowding). So, obvioulsy Cardiff is a less important place than Bristol and can be linked to major cities in England with trains that double up as rural stoppers rather than proper expresses.

I think that The Marches line could do with expresses as well as stoppers - especially if a new station were built at Caerleon. (It is desperately needed at Caerleon due to the poor road links with the M4). Perhaps the disused platform on the east side of Abergavenny station could be brought back in to use for stoppers from here to Cardiff? Abergavenny could also do with a car park serving the A465. As things stand, people are using the lay-byes and going down a bank to access the station from the east.

I note that Transpennine Express are getting rid of their 185’s (with doors at thirds) and switching to proper Inter City Trains such as the Hitachi 800’s for the longer distance runs to Scotland.

Mention has been made of the time it takes to off load/load passengers with end doors. Surely, this problem mainly arises due to the overcrowding? Hopefully, this will not be the case once sufficient capacity is provided? I can understand having doors at thirds on the frequent stopping services in the south Wales valleys.

I agree end door units are the best choice for TPE but then the trade off might have to be banning most (or all of them) from the Castlefield corridor and replacing them with Northern services opperated by units with doors at thirds. The new units for Llandudno-Manchester had to be doors at thirds to allow to continue opperating to Piccadilly.

 

[Gareth Marston]

especially if a new station were built at Caerleon. (It is desperately needed at Caerleon due to the poor road links with the M4).

kicked into the long grass of some future no timescale phase of the South Wales Metro.

I think that The Marches line could do with expresses as well as stoppers

The Stopping pattern on the Marches is yet to fully emerge. What we do know is that there will be -

An hourly Manchester to West Wales services which by 2024 will carry First Class Accommodation between Manchester and Swansea. There are 7 extra CAF Units for delivery in 2024- if these are the ones with First Class there are not enough of them to provide 1st Class on every hourly service. So there could be a different stopping pattern every two hours. There is also a plan to speed up services.

A Two hourly Holyhead to Cardiff service, some of which will be run by Mk4 sets (3 each way) and a commitment to speed up trains.

A Two hourly Liverpool to Cardiff service.

The Heart of Wales service (which also serves Craven Arms and Church Stretton ) will be 6 trains a day south of Shrewsbury and integrated with Crewe to Shrewsbury local service 8/9 a day.

 

[uxm]

Here is the taffs well depot layout for the stadler citylink Tram Trains

 

[Meerkat]

Much easier to fit it all in when they go round corners that tight!

 

[uxm]

Much easier to fit it all in when they go round corners that tight!

The are that the depot covers is currently full of lots of warehouses I've grown up passing them on the a470 it's gonna be weird to see them demolished.

 

[uxm]

Much easier to fit it all in when they go round corners that tight!

They're trams they're designed to do that.

 

[Bikeman78]

Adding more Pacers is politically toxic. If getting Northern Pacers in is a back up plan to cover for the lack of 769s we won't hear about it until one pulls up in service on the Valleys.

Will most people notice the difference between a 143 and a 144? I reckon most passengers on the valleys will be happy with anything in the short term if it means four cars instead of two.

 

[krus_aragon]

Will most people notice the difference between a 143 and a 144? I reckon most passengers on the valleys will be happy with anything in the short term if it means four cars instead of two.

The most obvious difference will be the colour of the paint on the outside.

 

[sw1ller]

The most obvious difference will be the colour of the paint on the outside.

Obvious to us maybe. Not your average passenger. Half the ones I speak to can’t tell the difference between a virgin and a merseyrail.

 

[uxm]

Just found out the Stadler Citylinks or FLIRTs will not have to lower their pantographs under bridges or tunnels as wires and conductor rails are being placed even under bridges but will not be electrified under bridges. The wires will be very close to the train under bridges where the Stadler trains will switch to battery power whole the pantograph will stay up. The only time the pantograph will lower on the central metro is when it switches to battery power north of Ystrad Mynach to Rhymney.

 

[Chris125]

So tunnels will be fully electrified without the need for battery power?

 

[sw1ller]

So tunnels will be fully electrified without the need for battery power?

No. Wires placed but no electricity. It’s how I envisage them electrifying Crewe to Holyhead one day.

 

[K.o.R]

I think the Northern City Line actually has a wire through the tunnels (though not energised) in case someone forgets to put down the pantograph.