Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[Peter Sarf]

horse and cart.

The 769 project also creates a bi-mode whereas the 230 appear to create a simple DMU with an extension creating a battery powered unit.

Good point, and to think the UK possibly pioneered the use of horse and carts on guided plate ways !.

Yes forgot that, the 769 should be a true Bi-Mode. Some will even be Tri-Mode (750V DC, 25KV AC and diesel for the North Downs Line). Wonder if batteries might feature one day ?.

 

[A0wen]

It looks like new chug has been out and about today - just passed Bow Brickhill on way to Bletchley.

 

[HLE]

It looks like new chug has been out and about today - just passed Bow Brickhill on way to Bletchley.

Must’ve brought the tape down from Tyseley yesterday!

 

[andythebrave]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Dh1sMPkoMrFLDOLvtNHtqPjvXqKdAp9c/view?usp=drivesdk

 

[InTheEastMids]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Dh1sMPkoMrFLDOLvtNHtqPjvXqKdAp9c/view?usp=drivesdk

Loving the audio.

"It's different... … It's square"

That is a pretty good summary of the previous 227 pages here.
Can we give them a medal?

 

[andythebrave]

Loving the audio.

"It's different... … It's square"

That is a pretty good summary of the previous 227 pages here.
Can we give them a medal?

That's my daughter, she'll be well chuffed

 

[DarloRich]

The delay of entry into service has been a blow to regular Vale passengers as there was ( honestly) a fair bit of excitement about the new trains. We await a new date with interest.

I assume the units are still in a mileage accumulation/fault free running period. Does anyone know if LM staff training has started.

Is Marston Vale testing still going on with 230003 despite the delay?

it was spotted out an about yesterday evening.

It looks like new chug has been out and about today - just passed Bow Brickhill on way to Bletchley.

First time for a while

 

[Class37.4]

Excitement really?

 

[DarloRich]

Excitement really?

Really. The same people tend to get the same train every day and you see the same faces so it is easy to gauge. The friends group also have a decent social media presence that many passengers follow. People genuinely interested in the new trains and very keen to see them. Lots of talk about being let down when the delay was announced. There has also been really positive media coverage for the line which is now at risk .

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Really. The same people tend to get the same train every day and you see the same faces so it is easy to gauge. The friends group also have a decent social media presence that many passengers follow. People genuinely interested in the new trains and very keen to see them. Lots of talk about being let down when the delay was announced. There has also been really positive media coverage for the line which is now at risk .

Say what you will about the "All the Stations" thing from last year (I was a fan, though not everyone on here was), but it definitely made it more socially acceptable to express an interest in such things, or simply to pass comment.

 

[DarloRich]

Say what you will about the "All the Stations" thing from last year (I was a fan, though not everyone on here was), but it definitely made it more socially acceptable to express an interest in such things, or simply to pass comment.

I wasn't a fan however I am fairly certain that had about zero impact on the real world. If any media outlet is responsible for such a thing ( and i doubt it does really) it will be great railway journeys with Michael Portillo

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I wasn't a fan however I am fairly certain that had about zero impact on the real world. If any media outlet is responsible for such a thing ( and i doubt it does really) it will be great railway journeys with Michael Portillo

Portaloo is definitely more visible... but in the last year or so, it seems that discussing certain things about one's train service is no longer the social suicide that it was a few years ago. I've even heard non-enthusiasts (college students, for the record) expressing a pleasant surprise that their train home "isn't a Pacer, for once!". I'd expect they got that knowledge from social media rather than Great British Railway Journeys. It isn't mainstream, but it is now an acceptable form of geekery!

Back on topic, it's good to see that the 230s are to be used (or at least trialled) on a route which they seem suited for, and one where they're hardly going to end up being used on a neighbouring service they're inappropriate for. This should really shut the moaners up but I'm sure it won't.

 

[DarloRich]

Portaloo is definitely more visible... but in the last year or so, it seems that discussing certain things about one's train service is no longer the social suicide that it was a few years ago. I've even heard non-enthusiasts (college students, for the record) expressing a pleasant surprise that their train home "isn't a Pacer, for once!". I'd expect they got that knowledge from social media rather than Great British Railway Journeys. It isn't mainstream, but it is now an acceptable form of geekery!

I think a lot of it is social media Our CRP line has a really good social media presence, branded advertising at every station, CRP boards at every station, history displays, "events" ( walks, talks, pub crawls etc) based around the line, friends groups for most stations ( might join mine!) etc etc. This has really changed in the 8 years I have used the line and the passenger numbers are much higher than they were when I first started to use the chugs. 6 people got off the train at Fenny the other day. 6! That might not sound like much but I was the only one on most occasions until recently. It is a really positive story and these new trains might take it even further.

Back on topic, it's good to see that the 230s are to be used (or at least trialled) on a route which they seem suited for, and one where they're hardly going to end up being used on a neighbouring service they're inappropriate for. This should really shut the moaners up but I'm sure it won't.

it wont shut them up but we are really keen to try out these trains and quite open minded. The big benefit is better service resilience that 3 locally based trains should bring. It is a really big chance to push the line forward and develop new customers ahead of E-W

 

[MML]

I know I'll probably get shot down for suggesting it, but if they improved the frequency of the Marston Vale to half-hourly it would really help stimulate growth on the line. The current hourly frequency means many don't bother and use their car instead.
I do wonder whether the 3rd unit could operate a semi-fast service to achieve at least some additional services.
If successful, a 4th unit would be perfect.

 

[jon0844]

I wasn't a fan however I am fairly certain that had about zero impact on the real world. If any media outlet is responsible for such a thing ( and i doubt it does really) it will be great railway journeys with Michael Portillo

I think social media is far more powerful these days. Just about everyone seems to use Twitter to check their trains and communicate with the TOC (and have a good rant) and with the way social media now delivers similar posts, as well as hash tagging and sharing, I expect that things like All The Stations reached a lot of 'ordinary' rail users.

It isn't that everyone suddenly became a spotter, but they have found that social media is ideal for use when they're travelling, or not if there's disruption.

 

[Journeyman]

I think social media is far more powerful these days. Just about everyone seems to use Twitter to check their trains and communicate with the TOC (and have a good rant) and with the way social media now delivers similar posts, as well as hash tagging and sharing, I expect that things like All The Stations reached a lot of 'ordinary' rail users.

I think the key with Geoff and Vicki is that they make a good presenting team and cover a lot of stuff between them. Geoff is the more stereotypical geek, but Vicki's interest goes a bit wider and puts the trains into a bit of social context (which is what she does for her day job), and that broadens the appeal.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Portaloo is definitely more visible... but in the last year or so, it seems that discussing certain things about one's train service is no longer the social suicide that it was a few years ago. I've even heard non-enthusiasts (college students, for the record) expressing a pleasant surprise that their train home "isn't a Pacer, for once!". I'd expect they got that knowledge from social media rather than Great British Railway Journeys. It isn't mainstream, but it is now an acceptable form of geekery!

Firstly, that will mainly be down to the mainstream news media. There has been a lot over the last couple of years on local TV news about Pacers, etc.

Secondly, many members of the public have no idea what a Pacer is. I was on a service a year or so ago from Leeds and a bloke said to his wife ‘I don’t know why they keep going on about how bad these Pacers are. They’re OK. They do the job’. It was a 150.

 

[Journeyman]

Firstly, that will mainly be down to the mainstream news media. There has been a lot over the last couple of years on local TV news about Pacers, etc.

Secondly, many members of the public have no idea what a Pacer is. I was on a service a year or so ago from Leeds and a bloke said to his wife ‘I don’t know why they keep going on about how bad these Pacers are. They’re OK. They do the job’. It was a 150.

I've got some flak elsewhere for pointing this stuff out - most rail travellers have absolutely no idea what they're travelling on, how it's powered, how it works, and what it does etc. etc. When I dared to suggest that most people have no idea what underfloor engines are, and don't care about the noise they make, I was shouted down like you wouldn't believe!

 

[Rail Blues]

I've got some flak elsewhere for pointing this stuff out - most rail travellers have absolutely no idea what they're travelling on, how it's powered, how it works, and what it does etc. etc. When I dared to suggest that most people have no idea what underfloor engines are, and don't care about the noise they make, I was shouted down like you wouldn't believe!

I agree.

Most passengers neither know nor care what class of train they travel on. I'm the same with buses and probably travel by bus twice a week but have no idea or interest in what make or model the bus is or where the engine is located. Buses all look the same to me and i only care that it a) turns up b) isn't crush loaded and c) isn't filthy dirty or strewn with litter. I would suggest that is probably the case for most rail users.

 

[3141]

I've got some flak elsewhere for pointing this stuff out - most rail travellers have absolutely no idea what they're travelling on, how it's powered, how it works, and what it does etc. etc. When I dared to suggest that most people have no idea what underfloor engines are, and don't care about the noise they make, I was shouted down like you wouldn't believe!

I think it's not the technicality but the outcome that matters to most passengers. "Underfloor engines" doesn't mean much, but if they learn from experience that certain trains are much noisier inside than others, or that one position in a carriage is much noisier than another one, they will develop an opinion that isn't complimentary.

For class 230s, if people experience a train that offers a comfortable journey, has a pleasant appearance (inside especially), offers more capacity, and is reliable, they won't care if it's actually 35 years old and used to run on the District Line.

 

[Journeyman]

I agree.

Most passengers neither know nor care what class of train they travel on. I'm the same with buses and probably travel by bus twice a week but have no idea or interest in what make or model the bus is or where the engine is located. Buses all look the same to me and i only care that it a) turns up b) isn't crush loaded and c) isn't filthy dirty or strewn with litter. I would suggest that is probably the case for most rail users.

I'm geeky enough to take at least some interest whenever I travel by bus, plane, ship etc, but I agree, I don't know anywhere near as much about these modes of transport, or care as much about them, as I do trains, so I know what you mean. Most people are nowhere near as fussy or particular or curious as the people you'd find here.

 

[Journeyman]

I think it's not the technicality but the outcome that matters to most passengers. "Underfloor engines" doesn't mean much, but if they learn from experience that certain trains are much noisier inside than others, or that one position in a carriage is much noisier than another one, they will develop an opinion that isn't complimentary.

For class 230s, if people experience a train that offers a comfortable journey, has a pleasant appearance (inside especially), offers more capacity, and is reliable, they won't care if it's actually 35 years old and used to run on the District Line.

I know exactly what you mean. The majority of regular passengers will develop preferences, but not know or care about why it is that they have those preferences. And yes - if the D Train represents a subjective improvement over what they're currently using, they'll be happy, and news will spread and more people will use it.

Note emphasis on the word subjective. There's no way you can objectively state that "train x is better than train y because z", because there's so many variables involved. I've pointed this out before - when ScotRail did some research and found that people preferred HSTs over 170s, it doesn't mean the HST is objectively better. It means the HST has more seats and better catering, and that's what people consider important. They have absolutely no idea what type of train it is, their preferences are based on whether it's a nicer journey or not, and there's more than one way to skin a cat, as they say.

 

[A0wen]

I've got some flak elsewhere for pointing this stuff out - most rail travellers have absolutely no idea what they're travelling on, how it's powered, how it works, and what it does etc. etc. When I dared to suggest that most people have no idea what underfloor engines are, and don't care about the noise they make, I was shouted down like you wouldn't believe!

Well said.

This post ought to be a 'sticky' at the top of every thread about rolling stock.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Gordon Bennett!

I make a throwaway comment about how the general public ("normals" if you will) seem to be (slightly) more observant about their train services than they were ten years ago... and it turns into a long run of posts all saying exactly the same thing, like fans of an indie band putting up the barricades when they have a big hit!

I think some people may need to get out more.

I did try to quell the off-topic diversion I inadvertently inspired! So, class 230s...

 

[Darandio]

So, class 230s...

....will be a huge success. So much of a success that following a raft of successful RMT strikes over the lack of retention tanks, ScotRail will order several and run them in lieu of missing HST's until 2024 when the Mk3 conversion project is finally complete.

 

[Bletchleyite]

....will be a huge success. So much of a success that following a raft of successful RMT strikes over the lack of retention tanks, ScotRail will order several and run them in lieu of missing HST's until 2024 when the Mk3 conversion project is finally complete.

In all seriousness, if the HST thing really goes to pot and ScotRail are forced to order new stock as a replacement which may have a lead time of several years, it might well be an option to order 230s to run in places like the Far North to free up 156s and 158s to fill in on the mainlines. Or to do some kind of deal with another TOC to do the same, e.g. Northern to order 230s for the Ormskirk/Colne/Blackpool S circuit (assuming they can be accommodated on the WCML), cascading 150s to 156s, 156s to 158s and releasing 158s or 170s back.

 

[Class37.4]

There are suggestions on other threads that 230’s might be being looked at for some shorter runs in Scotland, I wouldn’t regard 230’s as being suitable for the far North

As for ordinary punters not being aware of what train they are on, well plenty of normals in my office know what a Pacer is and would describe Northern as s***

 

[Journeyman]

There are suggestions on other threads that 230’s might be being looked at for some shorter runs in Scotland, I wouldn’t regard 230’s as being suitable for the North.

True, the 230 isn't a long-distance train, but there's plenty of short runs for which it could work, and it's very interesting that Transport Scotland forked out the cash for the battery unit to do demonstration runs on the Bo'ness and Kinneil Railway recently.

 

[Doomotron]

I think that, despite the overly boxy looks and the low top speed and possibly bad suspension but I haven't been on one), the 230 is a very good train, and I think that if Vivarail impress an operator both Vivarail themselves and the Class 230 could be successes. If there's any small train company I want to see in 20 years time as a successful company, it's this one.

In fact, I think Vivarail might have kickstarted a new way of thinking of new trains: get an old one and rebuild it inside out. Could be quite useful if anybody takes it up. Anybody up for a 'new' 150 or 158?

 

[Class37.4]

The D230 may suitable for limited number of routes such as relatively short distance with low speed and frequent stops but it’s very much a niche product with limited application in my view.

It’s a bodged up 1980’s tube train at the end of the day and we are now well into the 21st century. Had Northern been lumbered with these things I’m sure there would be many normal punters who would think the North got a crap deal yet again.