Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[Journeyman]

It’s a bodged up 1980’s tube train at the end of the day and we are now well into the 21st century. Had Northern been lumbered with these things I’m sure there would be many normal punters who would think the North got a crap deal yet again.

I don't think that's particularly relevant, or that many people would care.

The bogies are only ten years old, the traction equipment is new, the bodies are aluminium and therefore corrosion-resistant, the interiors were given an extensive refurbishment only a few years ago, and the things were built like tanks. They represent a pretty good improvement over what some lines are operating with.

Agreed, it's not suitable for everything, and it's ugly as hell - the D Stock was always quite boxy-looking - but it's a decent and flexible bit of kit at the end of the day.

Ultimately, the fact that it's D Stock doesn't really matter. It's what happened to be available. The concept, and the technology it has spawned, is ultimately what matters.

 

[hooverboy]

Back on topic, it's good to see that the 230s are to be used (or at least trialled) on a route which they seem suited for,

east west rail cometh.230's are only suitable for the present cottage industry set-up.Not future proofed in any way.
they'll work on something like marlow-bourne end , perhaps abbey line,which will free up a DMU/EMU , but EWR is supposed to be a 100mph line in the not too distant future.

 

[Class37.4]

I don't think that's particularly relevant, or that many people would care.

The bogies are only ten years old, the traction equipment is new, the bodies are aluminium and therefore corrosion-resistant, the interiors were given an extensive refurbishment only a few years ago, and the things were built like tanks. They represent a pretty good improvement over what some lines are operating with.

Agreed, it's not suitable for everything, and it's ugly as hell - the D Stock was always quite boxy-looking - but it's a decent and flexible bit of kit at the end of the day.

Ultimately, the fact that it's D Stock doesn't really matter. It's what happened to be available. The concept, and the technology it has spawned, is ultimately what matters.

Well that’s the usual stuff we have had trotted out by many for the last 228 pages, but as far as I am concerned at best you can consider them equiv to a 150 but it’s 2018 and we should be moving on modern Air Con trains which of course apart from a couple of limited uses is what both franchises that have ordered them are doing.

One wonders about the motivation of ScotRail is perhaps an attempt to free up more Sprinters to cover for the heavily delayed HST’s?

 

[A0wen]

east west rail cometh.230's are only suitable for the present cottage industry set-up.Not future proofed in any way.
they'll work on something like marlow-bourne end , perhaps abbey line,which will free up a DMU/EMU , but EWR is supposed to be a 100mph line in the not too distant future.

Given the average distance between the stations on the Marston Vale is 2-3 miles, 100 mph stock on the stoppers is really not necessary and decent acceleration will be far more important which may help the 230s.

 

[hooverboy]

Given the average distance between the stations on the Marston Vale is 2-3 miles, 100 mph stock on the stoppers is really not necessary and decent acceleration will be far more important which may help the 230s.

agree that good acceleration is important, but the fact is when EWR kicks off properly there is likely to be a rationalisation of stations...it will be much quicker/cheaper to build new ones at key points like ridgemont/woburn and consign stoppers to peak time/lunchtime only

kempston+st johns will probably close.maybe new interchange at elstow between bedpan and EWR(not ideal IMHO because I think EWR should serve intercity hubs but god only knows what the planners do with their crayons..after all they know best don't they!!)

 

[Mollman]

I know I'll probably get shot down for suggesting it, but if they improved the frequency of the Marston Vale to half-hourly it would really help stimulate growth on the line. The current hourly frequency means many don't bother and use their car instead.
I do wonder whether the 3rd unit could operate a semi-fast service to achieve at least some additional services.
If successful, a 4th unit would be perfect.

East West Rail phase 2 is meant to provide an hourly fast along the route but that might be 2025.

 

[hooverboy]

East West Rail phase 2 is meant to provide an hourly fast along the route but that might be 2025.

improved frequency is a moot point. that train is only rammed for school runs 7-9am/4-6pm weekdays. the rest of the time it's pretty dead.

it COULD be made busier by connecting bedford-MKC directly
with good connections you could be talking increase in footfall for business/MK bowl concerts/MK don's footie/ MK nightlife which are not served at present.

to put things in perspective..for revenue...lets say MK don's get lucky and draw liverpool in the FA cup.....marston vale(with the right connections to MK stadium) COULD earn as much on that day as an entire month with the present set-up.

likewise for U2 ,coldplay or bruce springsteen at the bowl

not to mention being a quicker and better hub for going from east anglia to the north/wales etc cutting out an hour or two of journey time

point being, if you want to bring growth, you need to make travelling to destinations of interest/commercial/logistic importance/entertainment etc etc as quick and painless as possible.
..and bletchley is not on the list. MK is.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

east west rail cometh.230's are only suitable for the present cottage industry set-up.Not future proofed in any way.
they'll work on something like marlow-bourne end , perhaps abbey line,which will free up a DMU/EMU , but EWR is supposed to be a 100mph line in the not too distant future.

Then it's all the more sensible to use 230s. Rather than the alternative of ordering a couple of extra 196s which would be operating isolated from their home depot and repeating the exact issues that come up today with the 150 and 153.

 

[HLE]

Does it matter if it’s new, old or whatever? If it does the same job and it’s cheaper then I’m for it.

We live in an era where emissions are ever more an issue, I hate to think how much energy and CO2 emissions are emitted by building new compared to vivarails proposal.

 

[hooverboy]

Does it matter if it’s new, old or whatever? If it does the same job and it’s cheaper then I’m for it.

We live in an era where emissions are ever more an issue, .

well known fact that vegans fart more than meat eaters..and methane is 80x more potent greenhouse gas than CO2

some farmers got this base covered already

what are you doing to to curb the sanctimonious moral superiority?

 

[Darandio]

well known fact that vegans fart more than meat eaters..and methane is 80x more potent greenhouse gas than CO2

At the risk of going even further off topic, this is fascinating. It's currently in the news that you shouldn't eat red meat because it can cause cancer. But if you eat red meat there are potentially less cows stood in the fields farting at any one time, then if you do eat the meat you fart less than someone who doesn't and can save the planet for your grandchildren. What a dilemma right there.

 

[HLE]

well known fact that vegans fart more than meat eaters..and methane is 80x more potent greenhouse gas than CO2

some farmers got this base covered already

what are you doing to to curb the sanctimonious moral superiority?

Haha I’m no vegan or supporter of vegan ism. No need to make assumptions.

What I don’t like is the argument that just because the 230’s are old they’re inferior to new units. It’s pure waste if we’re scrapping units that can still be used just to build new at a higher cost.

Obviously a lot more too it than that. Just a general point in response to a previous post

 

[hooverboy]

At the risk of going even further off topic, this is fascinating. It's currently in the news that you shouldn't eat red meat because it can cause cancer. But if you eat red meat there are potentially less cows stood in the fields farting at any one time, then if you do eat the meat you fart less than someone who doesn't and can save the planet for your grandchildren. What a dilemma right there.

all makes perfect sense if you can get your head around geomagnetics being the primary driver of global warming.not CO2.

when I was at school acid rain was the big eco-fashion.
then CFC'S
Then fossil fuels

truth is the powers that be either don't have a clue what's causing it,or do know and won't tell
my theory(from an electrical/electronics background) sort of makes sense..and can totally debunk how/why ozone layer depletes, global warming, more intense storms etc etc...even at DNA level(as haemaglobin is iron based)....why people are acting in more intense/sporadic/irrational ways.

 

[hooverboy]

Haha I’m no vegan or supporter of vegan ism. No need to make assumptions.

What I don’t like is the argument that just because the 230’s are old they’re inferior to new units. It’s pure waste if we’re scrapping units that can still be used just to build new at a higher cost.

Obviously a lot more too it than that. Just a general point in response to a previous post

sure...point taken.

I'm suggesting that a unit like this does have a place, but the line in question ain't it.
it's very important for some villages to have transport links for sure....but for marston vale,the decision has already been taken it is not a village line any more...it's seen as an important conduit between technological/commercial hubs....but TPTB are still insisting on old village connection points rather than the tech/commercial hubs themselves.....that doesn't make any sense at all

 

[M1544]

When the 230s are in service will the Marston vale trains be extended from Bletchley to Milton Keynes? I thought that’s why MK had the extra south facing bay built a few years ago, and would certainly help passengers connect better on the line

 

[hooverboy]

When the 230s are in service will the Marston vale trains be extended from Bletchley to Milton Keynes? I thought that’s why MK had the extra south facing bay built a few years ago, and would certainly help passengers connect better on the line

as far as I'm aware sadly not...albeit I think they ought to

besides at 60mph limit that is going to be a proper blocker on WCML slows.

MKC-BDM this is actually a perfect candidate line for a 769 if they do it properly

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not, sadly, unless you rebuild a load of the stations. 2x20m absolute max, SDO not an option as the train would overhang roads.

The whole (and only) reason they are not using a new DMU is that 2x23m is too long.

 

[sprinterguy]

When the 230s are in service will the Marston vale trains be extended from Bletchley to Milton Keynes? I thought that’s why MK had the extra south facing bay built a few years ago, and would certainly help passengers connect better on the line

Same timetable, just different trains: 60mph max and diesel only would surely be a shocking waste of WCML slow line capacity even on a relatively short hop as Bletchley - Milton Keynes, as hooverboy above points out.

 

[hooverboy]

It's not, sadly, unless you rebuild a load of the stations. 2x20m absolute max, SDO not an option as the train would overhang roads.

The whole (and only) reason they are not using a new DMU is that 2x23m is too long.

Precisely my point
key stations need to be 150-200m platform length....enough to cope with 6-8 car 23m carriage at peak time/loading
typically I think 4 car 769 would be sufficient, but as I said before...future proof with capability for 50% more if required.

where is the biggest footfall?..bedford midland(obviously), and the amazon warehouse

for the run up from bletchley to MK you would need a unit that does 90mph in service to be viable

 

[zn1]

The complete code 1 of the body interior and update of the traction package of the District line kit to class 230 is lets all admit it, a good idea.

As is the same idea upgrading the 319s with a diesel and generator set to allow off grid operating.

this is what Bombardier should have doing with the 220/221 and 222 fleets - but in reverse, making them BI-MODEs

The Branch is perfect for these units..one hopes the bedding In is going well, and dummy loads are comparable to the actual loadings - the St trinians express loadings for example and normal day operating to make sure they can cope with the punishment the branch can give a unit..

I suspect there could be a case for a squadron of 769 being used on the oxford line between Oxford - MKC and beyone & Bedford and beyond

it makes sense to me

again just a thought

 

[InOban]

all makes perfect sense if you can get your head around geomagnetics being the primary driver of global warming.not CO2.

when I was at school acid rain was the big eco-fashion.
then CFC'S
Then fossil fuels

truth is the powers that be either don't have a clue what's causing it,or do know and won't tell
my theory(from an electrical/electronics background) sort of makes sense..and can totally debunk how/why ozone layer depletes, global warming, more intense storms etc etc...even at DNA level(as haemaglobin is iron based)....why people are acting in more intense/sporadic/irrational ways.

Acid rain was stopped by an international ban on high-sulphur fuels, dessulphurisation of power station gases etc. The ozone hole -nothing to do with global warming- is beginning to repair itse!f after the worldwide ban on CFCs. The 'greenhouse effect' of CO2 was identified 200 years ago, and global warming 100 years ago.
There are of course other influences from wobbles in the earth's orbit, but they are nothing to do with the present climate changes.

 

[hooverboy]

nth

Acid rain was stopped by an international ban on high-sulphur fuels, dessulphurisation of power station gases etc. The ozone hole -nothing to do with global warming- is beginning to repair itse!f after the worldwide ban on CFCs. The 'greenhouse effect' of CO2 was identified 200 years ago, and global warming 100 years ago.
There are of course other influences from wobbles in the earth's orbit, but they are nothing to do with the present climate changes.

nope

when the ozone hole starts expanding(again) and we've supposedly driven the primary cause away from business practice, the people saying it was the main driver are going to look incredibly stupid,

FWIW prince charles(renowned environmentalist) said we had 2 years to save the earth....5 years ago
we are still here!

don't have a particular problem with his world view,apart from the fact his ideal lifestyle means about 10% of the present planetary population
I think 90% of the inhabitants might object somewhat

 

[HLE]

The points on here about the 230’s only being 60mph units are valid. But some of the dogboxes that operate the route couldn’t pull the skin off a rice pudding. I doubt many would get up to 75mph in the small distance between Bletchley and MK.

I have no idea about the 150’s mind.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

At the risk of going even further off topic, this is fascinating. It's currently in the news that you shouldn't eat red meat because it can cause cancer. But if you eat red meat there are potentially less cows stood in the fields farting at any one time, then if you do eat the meat you fart less than someone who doesn't and can save the planet for your grandchildren. What a dilemma right there.

Except of course that if red meat wasn't eaten so widely, there wouldn't be so many beef farms and thus fewer bullocks farting us into oblivion... it certainly is a dilemma!

Now, if somebody can come up with a practical way of capturing that methane and using it to power old underground trains...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Have Vivarail updated information on the actual number of new Class 230 units their existing production facility can produce or is it still the same number per month that was stated quite some time ago.

 

[A0wen]

The points on here about the 230’s only being 60mph units are valid. But some of the dogboxes that operate the route couldn’t pull the skin off a rice pudding. I doubt many would get up to 75mph in the small distance between Bletchley and MK.

I have no idea about the 150’s mind.

Pretty much no DMUs currently in use would hit their top speed between most stations on the Marston Vale - you're looking at an average of 2 miles between stations.

 

[causton]

with good connections you could be talking increase in footfall for business/MK bowl concerts/MK don's footie/ MK nightlife which are not served at present.

to put things in perspective..for revenue...lets say MK don's get lucky and draw liverpool in the FA cup.....marston vale(with the right connections to MK stadium) COULD earn as much on that day as an entire month with the present set-up.

likewise for U2 ,coldplay or bruce springsteen at the bowl

On the contrary. Fenny Stratford is an easy walk from MK Stadium and is often used for people going to/from it!

 

[A0wen]

On the contrary. Fenny Stratford is an easy walk from MK Stadium and is often used for people going to/from it!

I was about to comment on the knowledge of MK as Bletchley is by far the closest station to MK stadium...

 

[Wolfie]

In all seriousness, if the HST thing really goes to pot and ScotRail are forced to order new stock as a replacement which may have a lead time of several years, it might well be an option to order 230s to run in places like the Far North to free up 156s and 158s to fill in on the mainlines. Or to do some kind of deal with another TOC to do the same, e.g. Northern to order 230s for the Ormskirk/Colne/Blackpool S circuit (assuming they can be accommodated on the WCML), cascading 150s to 156s, 156s to 158s and releasing 158s or 170s back.

Why exactly Northern, which Scottail screwed over years ago over rolling stock, would wish to offer it's passengers an inferior service to bail Scotrail out now (or indeed DfT the Scottish Government), is unclear but seems unlikely to me...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

improved frequency is a moot point. that train is only rammed for school runs 7-9am/4-6pm weekdays. the rest of the time it's pretty dead.

it COULD be made busier by connecting bedford-MKC directly
with good connections you could be talking increase in footfall for business/MK bowl concerts/MK don's footie/ MK nightlife which are not served at present.

to put things in perspective..for revenue...lets say MK don's get lucky and draw liverpool in the FA cup.....marston vale(with the right connections to MK stadium) COULD earn as much on that day as an entire month with the present set-up.

likewise for U2 ,coldplay or bruce springsteen at the bowl

not to mention being a quicker and better hub for going from east anglia to the north/wales etc cutting out an hour or two of journey time

point being, if you want to bring growth, you need to make travelling to destinations of interest/commercial/logistic importance/entertainment etc etc as quick and painless as possible.
..and bletchley is not on the list. MK is.

Though if Liverpool are drawn at Franchise in the FA Cup*, any self-respecting Liverpool fans will be looking for advances from Lime Street to Norbiton or New Malden so they can give their money to the deserving...