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Tyne & Wear Metro: Fleet Refurbishment List

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Paul_10

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The turn time at South Shields is only 4 1/2 minutes therefore reducing it any further isn’t possible.

I always thought it was around 6 mins although I only have fairly limited experience so might be wrong on that. Either way, I still don't get how signalling constraints mean a train can't stop at Chichester P2 when as I say, there is only one train in that section for the duration. I see many more people are trying to get answers to this also, it is probably actually quite a big inconvience for any passengers involved.
 

jkkne

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Nexus have been pretty vague and non commital on this issue tbh. Which really is peak Nexus.

I think what frustrates Chichester passengers is seeing the train crawl through P2. Without the above detail from Nexus it doesn’t look great to passengers.

Another day of infrastructure failure today...still...new trains soon *cough*
 

Paul_10

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Nexus have been pretty vague and non commital on this issue tbh. Which really is peak Nexus.

I think what frustrates Chichester passengers is seeing the train crawl through P2. Without the above detail from Nexus it doesn’t look great to passengers.

Another day of infrastructure failure today...still...new trains soon *cough*

Points failure I believe and guessing where the suspension was, I assume it be the points at Gosforth Junction? And tbh, giving what usually happens with train orders in terms of delays then I think the original target of fleet replacement occuring between 2023-2025 to be a more realistic target than the first train coming by the end of 2021. The platform board bugs really need to be sorted out mind and it seems going by the comments, its actually getting a whole lot worse, quite embarracing really.

Yep, not commenting on the issue does seem to be telling, I personally don't get it, I really don't although I only been through the area just the once since the new build but as I say, only one train is operating between Tyne Dock and South Shields when the service is running smoothly. Even the speed restriction does not add up as the approch to South Shields did not seem that significantly slower to me?
 

Scott M

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Been looking at old photos of the metro recently. I have found photos of when they had the old line colours on the destinations. I have found examples of the following (see attached):

•Green line (South Shields to Airport)
•Yellow line (Pelaw to St James)
•Red line (Pelaw to Benton)
•Black line (well, not really a line - I believe this was used for miscellaneous destinations such as South Gosforth, Tynemouth and “Not In Service”)

Apparently, from looking at old metro maps, there was also a blue line, running from North Shields to St James? I have as of yet been unable to find a photo of a metro with a blue destination on the front; does anyone know if blue line trains used to have blue destination boards on front?
 

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142094

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Been looking at old photos of the metro recently. I have found photos of when they had the old line colours on the destinations. I have found examples of the following (see attached):

•Green line (South Shields to Airport)
•Yellow line (Pelaw to St James)
•Red line (Pelaw to Benton)
•Black line (well, not really a line - I believe this was used for miscellaneous destinations such as South Gosforth, Tynemouth and “Not In Service”)

Apparently, from looking at old metro maps, there was also a blue line, running from North Shields to St James? I have as of yet been unable to find a photo of a metro with a blue destination on the front; does anyone know if blue line trains used to have blue destination boards on front?

Yes, think I remember Wallsend and North Shields being in blue. There is a picture of it somewhere on Flickr.
 

142094

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I always thought it was around 6 mins although I only have fairly limited experience so might be wrong on that. Either way, I still don't get how signalling constraints mean a train can't stop at Chichester P2 when as I say, there is only one train in that section for the duration. I see many more people are trying to get answers to this also, it is probably actually quite a big inconvience for any passengers involved.

4 minutes is the shortest turnaround time, although this does depend on if the driver needs to use the facilities at the terminus station.

I believe the reason is that, due to the slower linespeed, if Chichester was served, it would throw the whole timetable out of the window. You'll often see that a train a few minutes late getting into Jarrow or from Hebburn to Pelaw will affect every other train entering the single line.
 

ModernRailways

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Evening Chronicle said:
Metro depot to be built in Howdon to help deliver new £500m fleet
Plans to build a temporary depot facility on a former landfill site in Wallsend Road have been approved

A new Metro depot which will help deliver a new £500m fleet of trains will be built in Howdon.

Plans to build a temporary depot facility on a former landfill site in Wallsend Road won the approval of North Tyneside Council’s planning committee on Tuesday morning.

The site will first be used for overnight maintenance work on up to 10 Metro trains during the redevelopment of Nexus’ existing Gosforth depot.

It will also play a key role in the phased delivery of the new Metro fleet, which it is hoped will begin arriving at the end of 2021, and the long-awaited removal of the current trains.

Nexus bosses are thought to have spent £1 million purchasing the vacant land, which runs adjacent to the Metro line, from North Tyneside Council earlier this year.

Documents presented to the North East Combined Authority in June indicated that £13.3 million had been set aside for the acquisition of the land and the construction of the satellite depot.

A Nexus spokesperson said: “Our investment in a new fleet of trains is going to transform the customer experience on the Tyne and Wear Metro.

“Not only are we pressing ahead with our plans to buy new trains but we also have the funds in place to build a new maintenance depot in South Gosforth, on the site of the current Metro depot.

“As Metro and its staff transition to these new facilities over the coming years we need a temporary depot, which will be at Howdon in North Tyneside. This site will be used to carry out routine fleet maintenance work when we are rebuilding the main depot in South Gosforth. It will allow us to stable up to ten Metro trains at a different location as the building work progresses.

“The Howdon depot will also play a vital role as the new Metro fleet starts to arrive in late 2021. It will be the access point where we take delivery of the new trains in what will be a phased programme of deliveries.”

Five manufacturing giants - Bombardier, CAF, Downer/CRCC, Hitachi, and Stadler - are currently bidding for the £500 million contract to build the new Metro fleet.

That list will be whittled down to three before the winning bid is confirmed in late 2019.

Nexus expect to see the first new train arriving on North East tracks by late 2021, after which they will be gradually rolled out over a two-year period.

The 42 new trains are expected to arrive at a rate of two per month.

Nexus has secured Government grant funding of £337m towards the projected £362m cost of designing and building a new train fleet. This and the ongoing maintenance of the fleet over 35 years makes the total contract value about £500m.

More than 20 alternative sites were considered for the temporary depot – but previously recommended locations in Shields Road and Benton Square were later ruled out due to limited space, ground contamination, and overhead power lines.

It is anticipated that the Howdon site would be used for up to 10 years, after which it would be decommissioned and returned to undeveloped scrub land.

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/new...E2GAezJd2XcC1vGXgT_pQv7_q0ZhKJKAwAPSMGku7qyR8
 

Paul_10

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https://www.flickr.com/photos/metromadme/8679139580/in/album-72157633319689652/ - Picture courtesy of metromadme, fantastic collection of photos in there, well worth a look.

Interesting about the tempory depot although I think it will be a missed opportunity and not full on worth the costs if its going to be knocked back down within 10 years.

Also interesting the Chronicle mentioned 42 trains, I know the number suggested was less than what we originally got now(which could be a mistake in itself) but would 42 trains suggests effectively 1 whole train rather than the 2 carriages we have now?
 

Crimzz

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https://www.flickr.com/photos/metromadme/8679139580/in/album-72157633319689652/ - Picture courtesy of metromadme, fantastic collection of photos in there, well worth a look.

Interesting about the tempory depot although I think it will be a missed opportunity and not full on worth the costs if its going to be knocked back down within 10 years.

Also interesting the Chronicle mentioned 42 trains, I know the number suggested was less than what we originally got now(which could be a mistake in itself) but would 42 trains suggests effectively 1 whole train rather than the 2 carriages we have now?

The new fleet will consist of 84 carriages (42 trains) so yeah I do belive it will be a Walk-Through type sets.
 

hacman

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The new fleet will be 42 trains, which is a total of 168 coaches. (4 coach trains).

The current fleet is 90 trains strong, each train being 2 coaches, operating in pairs to form 4 coach trains.

The new trains will be fixed consists of the same length as the two unit pairs we see now.

As such, we’re still getting less.

Interestingly, I’m also hearing that the 25KV dual voltage requirement has been dropped in favour of exploring battery tech.

The depot at Howden will be more of a yard with basic facilities. It’s intended to provide relief while Gosforth is being rebuilt.

Nexus explored the option of moving the depot completely, but in fairness it is rather well placed from an operational perspective compared to anywhere else they’d be able to purchase suitable land.
 

ModernRailways

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The new fleet will be 42 trains, which is a total of 168 coaches. (4 coach trains).

The current fleet is 90 trains strong, each train being 2 coaches, operating in pairs to form 4 coach trains.

The new trains will be fixed consists of the same length as the two unit pairs we see now.

As such, we’re still getting less.

Interestingly, I’m also hearing that the 25KV dual voltage requirement has been dropped in favour of exploring battery tech.

The depot at Howden will be more of a yard with basic facilities. It’s intended to provide relief while Gosforth is being rebuilt.

Nexus explored the option of moving the depot completely, but in fairness it is rather well placed from an operational perspective compared to anywhere else they’d be able to purchase suitable land.

I'd love to know where you're getting this information.

The current trains we have operate in pairs - two carriages (metrocars) coupled together, they are not four carriages.

There will likely be 42 trains. They could be formed of four walk through carriages, or they could be formed of five walk through carriages (or three, or six, or seven). That is for the bidders to decide in their design phase. The new trains could be longer, as long as all the doors fit into the platforms then the length of them is no worry especially as I believe they will be fitted with in cab CCTV to allow dispatch from the cab without the need for the platform mirrors.

Again, the 25Kv is something for the train designers to incorporate, Nexus have given their rough specification and it is now up to the train designers to come up with their ideas.

The depot at Howdon is going to be used for two key things, it will be used for routine maintenance whilst Gosforth depot is completely rebuilt. And then it will also be the access point for the new rolling stock. Nexus were very keen to acquire the land adjacent to Hebburns single track section but that fell through and houses are now being built there. The new South Shields training centre will also be used for stabling of trains and as a place to provide routine maintenance on the stock as well as hopefully provide an earlier start time from South Shields towards the City Centre.
 

hacman

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So, as I said, the Howdon depot will be used while Gosforth is being refurbished. Nexus looked at other sites to relocate Gosforth, as the land is quite an asset, but it's now going to be rebuilt instead. Outstabling at South Shields in addition to other locations has always been possible - the training facility simply adds some maintainance capabilities and better security to this location.

Howdon is intended to be returned to scrub-land in about 10 years when Nexus are done with it.

The trains currently are twin-car articulated units (aka metrocars), operating in pairs. 2 x 2 is 4. Nexus and others refer to each metrocar as a carriage. Tomato-tomato.

Nexus specified in the tender that the length of the units should be ~180 feet in length. Obviously it's up to the manufacturer to specify how they achieve this, but bearing in mind the amount of funding allocated to the fleet is relatively minimal, I'm not hopeful that they will be longer. Nexus have categorically ruled out platform extensions too. Platform mirrors are a side-node, and would have no impact on the length or configuration, and I never mentioned this.

Whilst the new trains could consist of more than 4 segments / cars, the only benefit to this would be to keep the axel-to-weight ratio within spec - each car in the existing design is already relatively short, and a design that proposed more, smaller cars would need to justify the additional cost and engineering overhead from having more articulated sections, not to mention the reduced energy efficiency from additional wheelsets.

The 25kv situation is something I have spoken about with a journalist in the industry who was involved in the Nexus / supplier know-your-customer event. Power supply is not a "rough" component of the specification, and is explicit in certain options either being required or not. Again, suppliers could choose to incorporate this, but if they're not being explicitly required to and there is no extra funding for it, why would they?
 

jkkne

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Speaking of the single line, have Nexus explored the possibility of dualing the track between Pelaw and Hebburn and perhaps even onwards to Jarrow?
 

hacman

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Speaking of the single line, have Nexus explored the possibility of dualing the track between Pelaw and Hebburn and perhaps even onwards to Jarrow?

It was discussed a few years back, but has all gone quiet as far as I am aware.

I know there was mention before 2010 of it being tied into a new South Shields station development, but it seems to have not come to pass in that regard.
 

Crimzz

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Metro to star in a new ITV documentary series

A new series for ITV will feature life on the Tyne and Wear Metro – the first time in-depth access has been granted in the Metro’s near 40 year history.
The four-part series is the first commission for Leeds based producer Wise Owl Films, a Lime Pictures company that launched this year.


From the nexus website
 

Chris125

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The 25kv situation is something I have spoken about with a journalist in the industry who was involved in the Nexus / supplier know-your-customer event. Power supply is not a "rough" component of the specification, and is explicit in certain options either being required or not. Again, suppliers could choose to incorporate this, but if they're not being explicitly required to and there is no extra funding for it, why would they?

Presumably bids will be scored on both price and how much of the spec they meet - 25kv capability may not be compulsory but I'd be surprised if at least some (Stadler?) didn't offer passive provision so it could be retro-fitted and/or provided on future orders.
 

DanNCL

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Does anyone know if 4018, 4019 and 4075 are currently operational? I've not seen 4018 since May, and not seen 4019 or 4075 at all this year.
 

AutoKratz

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Presumably bids will be scored on both price and how much of the spec they meet - 25kv capability may not be compulsory but I'd be surprised if at least some (Stadler?) didn't offer passive provision so it could be retro-fitted and/or provided on future orders.

The 25kv spec has been officially ditched. It turned out to be cost prohibitive upon further investigation. The new strategy is battery storage so the new trains can run ‘overhead wire free’ for a specified distance. The costings and details haven’t been worked out so it’s unclear whether this would allow the trains to run on an unelectrified extension or if it would just allow trains to travel a short distance in the event of an overhead power failure on the existing network.
 

xotGD

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The 25kv spec has been officially ditched. It turned out to be cost prohibitive upon further investigation. The new strategy is battery storage so the new trains can run ‘overhead wire free’ for a specified distance. The costings and details haven’t been worked out so it’s unclear whether this would allow the trains to run on an unelectrified extension or if it would just allow trains to travel a short distance in the event of an overhead power failure on the existing network.
I'm thinking Sunderland to the Metro Centre...
 

MetroCar4058

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I'm thinking Sunderland to the Metro Centre...

Can't see that being considered on the current infrastructure; the Sunderland line is rather tight as it is and adding 4/5 paths an hour would be difficult. I also doubt that route would add much value unless it truly penetrated Newcastle. Perhaps it is better to start with integrating tickets on the Northern services between Sunderland - MetroCentre Via Heworth and Central without needing a DayRover or Transfare ticket, but again I doubt this would have any impact on farebox revenue for Metro and would run at a loss.

If a Metro service was to run from Sunderland to MetroCentre, it would probably require a shuffle in infrastructure along the Pelaw corridor and closure/mixed use of the Heworth mainline station as Metro again doesn't really have the paths along the core for a high frequency MetroCentre service without major signalling works.

Interestingly, a direct Metro service to the MetroCentre may cause some geographical shift in activity, but in my opinion unless the service runs through Monument it really is difficult for Metro to beat the bus if it were to connect to the MetroCentre as Central isn't really in the true daytime economic hub of the city.
 

142094

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Does anyone know how tall the tunnels are?
Both In Newcastle and Sunderland

Not sure of the exact figures but the tunnels in Newcastle are smaller than standard Network Rail clearances, as are the overheads on the majority of the original system (not including Benton to Callerton/Airport).
 

AutoKratz

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Today I sat in the front seat next to the driver’s cab and I noticed something in the cab constantly clicks randomly as the train brakes and pulls into a station. The best I can describe it as is a loud noticable clicking sound at irregular intervals. Does anyone know what it is for my own info - I assume it’s to do with the brakes?
 

142094

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Today I sat in the front seat next to the driver’s cab and I noticed something in the cab constantly clicks randomly as the train brakes and pulls into a station. The best I can describe it as is a loud noticable clicking sound at irregular intervals. Does anyone know what it is for my own info - I assume it’s to do with the brakes?

The cupboard to the left of the driver's door when looking from the front passenger seat is filled with electrical circuits and relays. When going through the braking steps from 1st, 2nd, 3rd and full service (also Emergency as a last resort) the relays make a clicking sound. Doesn't normally happen when accelerating.
 

jkkne

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Not sure if it's at all related to the ongoing saga of passenger information displays but the passenger information announcements on every Metro I've been on lately have been totally out of sync.
 
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