Scotland could welcome back train building for first time in decades

[RLBH]

The EU forces open competitions for new trains, but France has got round that by allowing large 10-year framework contracts with their builders.

The other way of getting around it is usually to specify that the new bit of kit must contain a Mark 27 Asymmetric Flangewarbler or equivalent. Funnily enough, nobody outside Ruritania knows what an Asymmetric Flangewarbler is, much less how to make one, and the Ruritanian manufacturers are at capacity with existing orders so can't accomodate. Fortunately, the Ruritanian Railway Locomotive & Carriage Works has a large stock of spare Mark 27 Asymmetric Flangewarblers in its' warehouses....

 

[TRAX]

Alstom and Siemens are trying to merge, with Siemens planned to lead on train building, Alstom on signalling

It’s a bit more complex than that.

The other way of getting around it is usually to specify that the new bit of kit must contain a Mark 27 Asymmetric Flangewarbler or equivalent. Funnily enough, nobody outside Ruritania knows what an Asymmetric Flangewarbler is, much less how to make one, and the Ruritanian manufacturers are at capacity with existing orders so can't accomodate. Fortunately, the Ruritanian Railway Locomotive & Carriage Works has a large stock of spare Mark 27 Asymmetric Flangewarblers in its' warehouses....

Alstom and Bombardier are the only two manufacturers with factories in France (Bombardier has one for everything and Alstom has several all over the country each specialising in some specific components and/or activities) able to fulfill the requirements of most orders; the french CAF factory doesn’t have enough capacity for major orders (that’s why they didn’t get the order for the new RER NG trains).
France tends to award contracts to its french workers, and quite logically so; why would we look somewhere else when we’ve got everything + good quality ? One of the rare times where SNCF bought "foreign" stock was when it ordered Siemens tram-trains; an experience it sure won’t renew, as these are very unreliable.

 

[DarloRich]

The other way of getting around it is usually to specify that the new bit of kit must contain a Mark 27 Asymmetric Flangewarbler or equivalent. Funnily enough, nobody outside Ruritania knows what an Asymmetric Flangewarbler is, much less how to make one, and the Ruritanian manufacturers are at capacity with existing orders so can't accomodate. Fortunately, the Ruritanian Railway Locomotive & Carriage Works has a large stock of spare Mark 27 Asymmetric Flangewarblers in its' warehouses....

something so obvious would fairly quickly lead to a legal challenge.

 

[RLBH]

something so obvious would fairly quickly lead to a legal challenge.

It's done a bit more cleverly than that, but the general approach of running a competition in a way that makes it difficult for non-domestic competitors is definitely done, if not in railways then certainly in other sectors. I suspect the reason it doesn't get legally challenged - which would definitely be justified - is that (e.g.) Siemens knows it's got the German market, and Alstom knows it's got the French market, and both feel that losing out on contracts on the other is an acceptable price for being secure in their home market.

The UK makes a rod for its' own back with this in some ways - the classic case in my sector is the MARS contracts for naval logistic support ships. EU competition rules require that the contract goes out to an open tender - the nature of the ships isn't sufficiently military for a national security exemption. The first contract went to a Korean shipyard, and no UK yards bid as they didn't feel they had the ability to compete. There have been political demands for the second contract to be awarded in the UK, regardless of the requirement for competition. The point is raised that, somehow, the French Navy builds equivalent ships in France, the Italian Navy in Italy, the Spanish Navy in Spain, and so forth. Exactly how they do it isn't clear, but they're definitely doing something. I'd imagine that whatever the Marine Nationale is doing, SNCF is also doing.

 

[diamond chap]

Longannet it is: https://dailybusinessgroup.co.uk/2018/11/longannet-awaits-decision-on-1000-jobs-train-factory/

"Longannet has secured a Spanish company’s investment in a 1,000 jobs factory to build the next generation of high speed trains.

The decision, being announced this morning by Talgo in London, will provide a huge boost to the Fife and Scottish economy, particularly in the aftermath of the almost certain loss of the Michelin tyre factory in Dundee. It also a big vote in Britain ahead of the country’s exit from the EU.

The former power station site at Longannet will be transformed into a 70,000 sq ft factory over 18 months, while the company will also develop its second preferred site at Chesterfield in Derbyshire as an innovation centre.

Longannet’s success is a huge feather in Scottish Enterprise’s cap after it pulled together a team of industrialists, academics, politicians, civil servants and development experts who were described by Talgo’s president as “a credit to Scotland” "

 

[InOban]

Excellent news, but no need to overegg it by referring to Dundee. The two areas are by no means in the same travel to work area. Almost 40 miles as the crow flies, no direct road, no public transport. An argument for extending trains from alloa to Dunfermline, though.

 

[Photohunter71]

Whilst it is good news initially, and I don't intentionally mean to pour a bucket of water on this, but what market(s) is this factory looking to assemble carriages for? There is a rumour that HS2 may be one, but they're up against Hitachi. How long will it last before it becomes a busted flush? Remember Caterpillar in Uddingston?

 

[matrix24]

It's all going to end in tears eventually. There's no way on earth that this many plants can be sustained. They'll produce their initial order and most of them will promptly vanish again a few years later. Don't get me wrong I'm not wholly opposed as even a few years of good employment as offered by such plants is to be welcomed but...

The current pound makes exporting much cheaper currently. If it does stay at this level I can see why companies would look at manufacturing in the UK for export. But orders for UK stock must be near peak levels and will decline as such.

 

[Mikey C]

The current pound makes exporting much cheaper currently. If it does stay at this level I can see why companies would look at manufacturing in the UK for export. But orders for UK stock must be near peak levels and will decline as such.

Spanish wages are lower than British ones though. And as the supply chain for Talgo will be predominantly in Spain, there's the expense of having to supply a remote Scottish plant as well

 

[InOban]

I don't know about Spanish labour laws, but one advantage of manufacturing in the UK is that it is so much easier to make people redundant when demand falls than it is, for example, in France.

 

[Altnabreac]

It's done a bit more cleverly than that, but the general approach of running a competition in a way that makes it difficult for non-domestic competitors is definitely done, if not in railways then certainly in other sectors. I suspect the reason it doesn't get legally challenged - which would definitely be justified - is that (e.g.) Siemens knows it's got the German market, and Alstom knows it's got the French market, and both feel that losing out on contracts on the other is an acceptable price for being secure in their home market.

The UK makes a rod for its' own back with this in some ways - the classic case in my sector is the MARS contracts for naval logistic support ships. EU competition rules require that the contract goes out to an open tender - the nature of the ships isn't sufficiently military for a national security exemption. The first contract went to a Korean shipyard, and no UK yards bid as they didn't feel they had the ability to compete. There have been political demands for the second contract to be awarded in the UK, regardless of the requirement for competition. The point is raised that, somehow, the French Navy builds equivalent ships in France, the Italian Navy in Italy, the Spanish Navy in Spain, and so forth. Exactly how they do it isn't clear, but they're definitely doing something. I'd imagine that whatever the Marine Nationale is doing, SNCF is also doing.

From the Scotrail ITT for example:

2.11 Customer contact centre
The Franchisee will be required to provide a range of retailing and information provision services for ScotRail services including telesales, provision of telephone services for the disabled, and customer services activities. Bidders should note that the Franchisee will be required to provide bi-lingual offering of English and Gaelic in the provision of these services and provide detailed advice and assistance to the public about the Scottish Rail Network. Those offering advice will be required to have excellent knowledge of the geography and rail services of Scotland.

 

[och aye]

And the winner is....

Train factory to bring 1,000 jobs to Longannet in Fife

https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...ing-1-000-jobs-to-longannet-in-fife-1-4829491

At least 1,000 jobs will be created at a train-building factory to be built at Longannet in Fife, Spanish firm Talgo announced today.
Construction of the 70,000 square metre plant on the former power station site is expected to take 18 months.

Talgo plans to build a range of trains and has been shortlisted for the high-speed trains contract for the HS2 line due to open between London and northern England in 2026.

It said extra jobs would be created in planning and construction of the factory, which could start within a year.

However, the plan is dependent on winning train orders.

A spokesman said: "It is all contingent on a significant order, which includes HS2 and other [British] franchises.

"There are also opportunities in Ireland and round the world.

"We envisage a process where we can be ready to ‘push the button’ on construction, the day after we receive an order.

"Our strategy is to be ‘ready to build’ the day we receive an ‘anchor client’ – in other words, a train order.

"We’d hope that this will happen within twelve months,"

An “innovation centre” will also be established at Chesterfield in Derbyshire.

The company said it would establish "true manufacturing" at Longannet using UK-sourced components, rather than assembling imported parts.

So Longannet wins and Chesterfield gets a runner up prize of an “innovation centre” (whatever that is?). Lets hope both sites are a success.

Interestingly, the article later mentions:

Components may be brought in by ship, while the firm said it would be keen to see further rail electrification to enable newly-built trains to run direct from the factory.

That suggests a possible upgrading of the single-track line past Longannet between Alloa and Dunfermline which was previously used by coal trains going to the power station.

The factory would be built on the site of the power station's coal storage yard, just west of the complex.

 

[Macwomble]

That suggests a possible upgrading of the single-track line past Longannet between Alloa and Dunfermline which was previously used by coal trains going to the power station.

Possible extension of the leccy (& Glasgow trains) from Alloa to Dunfermline then?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

However, the plan is dependent on winning train orders.

Several miracles have to happen before any of this comes to pass.

The paper, typically, says "will" when it means "could" or "might".
There are 5 other bidders on the short list for HS2 rolling stock.​

Talgo is the only bidder with no experience of building trains for the UK.
At least is shows intent.

 

[Andy25]

Several miracles have to happen before any of this comes to pass.

The paper, typically, says "will" when it means "could" or "might".
There are 5 other bidders on the short list for HS2 rolling stock.​

Talgo is the only bidder with no experience of building trains for the UK.
At least is shows intent.

Very telling that first spade in ground isn't until Jan 2020, a month after HS2 winner is due to be announced!

 

[Bornin1980s]

This is far more interesting than the brexit stuff.

 

[Mikey C]

Very telling that first spade in ground isn't until Jan 2020, a month after HS2 winner is due to be announced!

Surely it would be rather late to get the HS2 order and only then start building the factory? None of the other bidders would have to do this, or is there a lot of "design" time allowed for the winner, time in which the factory could be constructed?

 

[Stevec101]

The chief exec from a Spanish train builder was being shown around the east mids recently. He was taken to chesterfeild barrow hill for a look around. That's all fact

 

[Rob F]

The UK can't build trains for the continent because our loading gauge means that they could only be transported by road to a port. Otherwise, under single market rules, it's not a matter of don't want, the tender must be awarded to the best bid. It's taken a long time for this to become accepted - remember the row when Eurostar awarded the order for new trains to Siemens

So, perhaps the best place for a new plant is somewhere in Kent with a rail connection to HS1 and the tunnel.

 

[TRAX]

Who would you sell those trains to ?

 

[Western Lord]

Why can't people understand the difference between an assembly plant and a manufacturing plant. If this "facility" is built it will screw together bits manufactured elsewhere, like Hitachi's Newton Aycliffe "factory". As for exports, train builders will set up a similar assembly operation in any country if the order is big enough, so not much prospect of a British assembly plant being used to screw together non British orders.

 

[Andy25]

Why can't people understand the difference between an assembly plant and a manufacturing plant. If this "facility" is built it will screw together bits manufactured elsewhere, like Hitachi's Newton Aycliffe "factory". As for exports, train builders will set up a similar assembly operation in any country if the order is big enough, so not much prospect of a British assembly plant being used to screw together non British orders.

Whilst I agree, Talgo have gone to great lengths to say this will be more manufacturing than assembly so I can see why people would get confused.

 

[Andy25]

Surely it would be rather late to get the HS2 order and only then start building the factory? None of the other bidders would have to do this, or is there a lot of "design" time allowed for the winner, time in which the factory could be constructed?

Modern way is to use "anticipation budget" to get a head start on train design so that if you actually win it your 30% there on the design. Average design phase is 18-24 months.

Talgo have said they would start building in Jan 2020 and start manufacture in around 2022.

That seems about right to me, 18 months to build (Alstom Site in Widnes was done in 12 months) and first trains ready for around 2024 to give a couple years testing before the track is due to open in 2026.

 

[Ken H]

Modern way is to use "anticipation budget" to get a head start on train design so that if you actually win it your 30% there on the design. Average design phase is 18-24 months.

Talgo have said they would start building in Jan 2020 and start manufacture in around 2022.

That seems about right to me, 18 months to build (Alstom Site in Widnes was done in 12 months) and first trains ready for around 2024 to give a couple years testing before the track is due to open in 2026.

So you do all that, dont get the contract and suddenly your bottom line goes red.

 

[Andy25]

So you do all that, dont get the contract and suddenly your bottom line goes red.

You'll see from my previous posts that I've said this site won't happen unless they win HS2.

Bidding for HS2 represents £5-10M of investment in tendering costs, they'll spend maybe £500k of engineering time working out a design/developing a spec of a standard vehicle.

If they win it will go ahead and they'll spend another £40M building this site, if they lose they'll take HS2 Ltd to court and try to win back their tendering money

 

[squizzler]

Whilst the enthusiast community are convinced that Talgo are only interested in developing anything on site if they win HS2, and it certainly is the big prize, I understand the firm do have other products such as an articulated EMU that can be part of other bids.

Also I recall a couple of years ago that the UK rail traffic was forecast to double by the 2040's. The network does continue to grow and will continue to need new trains.

Why can't people understand the difference between an assembly plant and a manufacturing plant. If this "facility" is built it will screw together bits manufactured elsewhere, like Hitachi's Newton Aycliffe "factory". As for exports, train builders will set up a similar assembly operation in any country if the order is big enough, so not much prospect of a British assembly plant being used to screw together non British orders.

I understand train manufacturing companies build new factories as their business grows, and each time they add a new plant they will search round for the best site for their business plan at that time. They can then balance available work across their sites according to access to markets, skills, workforce cost etc. If a company has a successful product they can devote several plants to that range, as with Hitachi building their AT300 family in Italy, Japan and Sunderland to fulfil demand for their top seller.

 

[MotCO]

It seems that it is fairly cheap to set up a train building "factory", which is actually just an assembly plant for bits built elsewhere. It reminds me of when Lotus (and others) sold cars in kit form which you assembled yourself in your own garage!

Fancy building a train in your garage?

 

[mullac30]

Why can't people understand the difference between an assembly plant and a manufacturing plant. If this "facility" is built it will screw together bits manufactured elsewhere, like Hitachi's Newton Aycliffe "factory". As for exports, train builders will set up a similar assembly operation in any country if the order is big enough, so not much prospect of a British assembly plant being used to screw together non British orders.

Talgo have made a point of the fact that they won't just be "screwing together" components, but will be establishing "true" manufacturing in the UK.

 

[Photohunter71]

Talgo have made a point of the fact that they won't just be "screwing together" components, but will be establishing "true" manufacturing in the UK.

If that is the case, then they had better get used to designing more than just multiple units. Locomotives and carriages come to mind amongst other rail vehicular particulars.
You have to have a bit more to offer potential customers than just one or 2 products.

 

[DuncanS]

remote Scottish plant as well

Its alarming how many people have a complete lack of knowledge about the country they live in.