Waterloo Station Upgrade

[ijmad]

So the former Waterloo International platforms (20-24) are supposed to be ready in December for the timetable change. NR/SWR planned to increase services in December but this has now been put back to May and I'm sure we all know is controversial.

A video here with the whole upgrade from start to finish.

However, what's the current state of the building work? It doesn't look hugely ready to a casual observer standing on the mezzanine.

How much will be ready by December? Will SWR use the platforms, even without the timetable change?

Will the new undercroft and Waterloo tube entrance be opening or just the platforms?

Anyone have any info or links?

 

[nlogax]

Snippet of NCE article from three months ago. It's behind the usual paywall but may work once for you.

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/la...eadline-for-waterloo-upgrade/10032936.article

'Extremely tight' deadline for Waterloo upgrade

"The reopening of the old Eurostar platforms at Waterloo station will open on time despite the schedule being “extremely tight”.

Speaking at the New Civil Engineer UK Transport conference, Skanska commercial director Tim Ryall said the Wessex Capacity Alliance team had hit all milestone deadlines.

“We are still on target, it’s tight, really tight, but we are still on target,” he said. “The bit that’s tight is Waterloo International Terminal. We have achieved the all suburban 10 car train milestone [extending existing platforms to accommodate longer trains], Vauxhall is completed, Waterloo congestion relief is completed. The bit we are concerned about is the infill roof."

 

[swt_passenger]

The plan (at least according to RTT) is to use platforms 20, 21 and 22 from the December timetable change.

The infill roof shouldn’t be a critical item for use of the platforms.

(There was a thread on the Waterloo station platform upgrades somewhere, but it’s been pretty much dormant since a year ago. I think most discussion was in the blockade thread, so I don’t think there’s a problem with a new thread.)

This RTT query suggests after a random start platform 22 might be the standard for Windsor services.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...18/12/10/0600-2000?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt
...I expect when all 5 platforms become available it might make sense to have standard platforms for certain services if they can?

 

[ijmad]

This RTT query suggests after a random start platform 22 might be the standard for Windsor services.

Good spot. Similarly, Looks like most Reading services will be from Platform 21.

Wondering if the new escalators down to the tube from halfway along the platforms will be ready. Hard to see how much of that area is finished, but it looks like unfinished concrete from the mezzanine.

 

[swt_passenger]

Good spot. Similarly, Looks like most Reading services will be from Platform 21.

Wondering if the new escalators down to the tube from halfway along the platforms will be ready. Hard to see how much of that area is finished, but it looks like unfinished concrete from the mezzanine.

Yes, there’s a huge area out of sight. Mind they won’t be too worried about the long tail of the work, after declared “opening” of the platforms - you only have to look at London Bridge...

 

[Bigfoot]

Bulletin has appeared stating the international platforms will be in use from the 9th

 

[swt_passenger]

Bulletin has appeared stating the international platforms will be in use from the 9th

Does it mention if it will initially just be the 3 platforms already showing in RTT?

 

[ijmad]

As I suspected, they've not been quietly working on the undercroft as part of these initial works to ready the platforms.

In fact it seems the undercroft contract was only just awarded and work will start next April and be finished in 2021.

What I'm not sure about is if the new route down to the tube station will be ready for next month, or if disembarking from these new platforms and going to the tube will require you to walk over the bridge and turn right twice to go down in to the main tube entrance there.

Guess we'll see!

 

[swt_passenger]

As I suspected, they've not been quietly working on the undercroft as part of these initial works to ready the platforms.

In fact it seems the undercroft contract was only just awarded and work will start next April and be finished in 2021.

What I'm not sure about is if the new route down to the tube station will be ready for next month, or if disembarking from these new platforms and going to the tube will require you to walk over the bridge and turn right twice to go down in to the main tube entrance there.

Guess we'll see!

So even if the mid-platform route down is required to be open, if needed for safe circulation, it could well just lead to a hoarded off passage through a building site anyway.

 

[ijmad]

So even if the mid-platform route down is required to be open, if needed for safe circulation, it could well just lead to a hoarded off passage through a building site anyway.

That's what I imagine will be the case, yep.

 

[Antman]

It was 2004 when Eurostar announced finally it was moving to St Pancras. The government basically approved plans to rebuild St Pancras for Eurostar in 1996. How long does it take the authorities to decide to do anything, then NR can always be guaranteed to deliver it late and over budget. It's an embarrassment that it takes so long and the inability to deliver it is prolonging the lamentably shambolic performance of SWR since the blockade. But no doubt lessons will be learned and knighthoods (and pensions) will be kept.

 

[kev1974]

Bulletin has appeared stating the international platforms will be in use from the 9th

My trains sometimes go in to 20 which has more or less remained open throughout, with access via 19. So was in the ex-Eurostar shed on Friday just gone and looking across at the other platforms, I am not sure what they're doing to them since they seemed complete last year, but they're all fenced off along the platform edge and a lot of materials and plant lying about. Quite a lot of cleanup to do to get them ready for the 9th.

Also not sure that the bridge across to them from the main concourse is serviceable at the moment, they removed the temporary low roof over it and the sides ... don't think they are back yet ... so if they do open a couple more platforms in there maybe access to them all will be via 19. That will be quite the bottleneck if so.

There is some quite impressive scaffolding structures now in the gap between the two main roof sections, seems to be taking a very long time to get that gap filled in.

 

[Tio Terry]

My trains sometimes go in to 20 which has more or less remained open throughout, with access via 19. So was in the ex-Eurostar shed on Friday just gone and looking across at the other platforms, I am not sure what they're doing to them since they seemed complete last year, but they're all fenced off along the platform edge and a lot of materials and plant lying about. Quite a lot of cleanup to do to get them ready for the 9th.

Also not sure that the bridge across to them from the main concourse is serviceable at the moment, they removed the temporary low roof over it and the sides ... don't think they are back yet ... so if they do open a couple more platforms in there maybe access to them all will be via 19. That will be quite the bottleneck if so.

There is some quite impressive scaffolding structures now in the gap between the two main roof sections, seems to be taking a very long time to get that gap filled in.

I doubt they could open any platforms above 20 without opening the orchestra pit bridge entrance. Access via 19 would not be acceptable in the event of a need to evacuate the platforms in the former International Terminal.

 

[swt_passenger]

My trains sometimes go in to 20 which has more or less remained open throughout, with access via 19. So was in the ex-Eurostar shed on Friday just gone and looking across at the other platforms, I am not sure what they're doing to them since they seemed complete last year, but they're all fenced off along the platform edge and a lot of materials and plant lying about. Quite a lot of cleanup to do to get them ready for the 9th.

Also not sure that the bridge across to them from the main concourse is serviceable at the moment, they removed the temporary low roof over it and the sides ... don't think they are back yet ... so if they do open a couple more platforms in there maybe access to them all will be via 19. That will be quite the bottleneck if so.

There is some quite impressive scaffolding structures now in the gap between the two main roof sections, seems to be taking a very long time to get that gap filled in.

The design of the overall linking roof was only finalised at a relatively late stage IIRC, (I’d have to check the Lambeth planning website to be sure), and was always expected to be one of the very last areas to be started, so will probably be the last finished.

 

[mmh]

It was 2004 when Eurostar announced finally it was moving to St Pancras. The government basically approved plans to rebuild St Pancras for Eurostar in 1996. How long does it take the authorities to decide to do anything, then NR can always be guaranteed to deliver it late and over budget. It's an embarrassment that it takes so long and the inability to deliver it is prolonging the lamentably shambolic performance of SWR since the blockade. But no doubt lessons will be learned and knighthoods (and pensions) will be kept.

There are a few problems with that take:

- Eurostar could not move to St Pancras until HS1 was complete
- HS1 was not built by Network Rail
- St Pancras was not rebuilt by Network Rail

 

[ijmad]

Here's how things looked yesterday. Not massively finished, although the gateline and departure boards look like they're working at least.

The orchestra pit doesn't look like it is ready to open unless they're going to do a massive amount of last minute tiling, but the route down to the tube from the platforms might well be, obviously can't see that as it's all behind closed doors.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

I departed from platform 20 last Thursday and the covers had been opened up to reveal an escalator. I guess these may have been in place since Eurostar days but it does look like they are looking to get them working again.

 

[swt_passenger]

I departed from platform 20 last Thursday and the covers had been opened up to reveal an escalator. I guess these may have been in place since Eurostar days but it does look like they are looking to get them working again.

The escalator provision is totally revised since Eurostar days, there were originally 3 single long travelators mid platform, now removed, and 3 single smaller escalators nearer the buffer stops which were also removed during the refit. They only operated in one direction at a time, dependent on if dealing with an arrival or departure.

The 3 sets of twin escalators on the platforms are just a bit nearer the buffers than the travelators were, also all the lifts are new, and lastly the emergency stairs have been re-arranged slightly, I think that was to do with the platforms being shortened.

 

[Antman]

There are a few problems with that take:

- Eurostar could not move to St Pancras until HS1 was complete
- HS1 was not built by Network Rail
- St Pancras was not rebuilt by Network Rail

Absolutely. But that misses the point. When did Eurostar move (2007 wasn't it)? What happened in the intervening nine years ? They announced real work on site in 2016 to start in 2017. And they knew it was going twenty years ago.

Irrespective of whether NR did HS1 or St Pancras, why did it take almost a decade plus AFTER moving for NR to start doing anything. The planning could and should have been done before. And whilst not stop trains Sunday, start work Monday, nine years ? When britain's busiest station was desperate for capacity? It is widely reported that NR had NO plans at all for reuse of the platforms on closure. Instead we've had ridiculous plays being staged, and now we are stuck with an improved Waterloo that's is actually worse than before until the Eurostar platforms get opened .... how can it take so long? Why are people not accountable for this state of affairs ?

We are passengers, we simply cannot comprehend the lack of joined up thinking that leaves a mess of our busiest station, has stakeholders with no ideas for reuse and has a prime infrastructure asset left to deteriorate when we are herded like cattle and suffer ever slower commuter trains and ever more delays and ever increasing fares.

Hopefully it will be on time and on budget to be complete..... will it ?

Sorry, but there simply needs to be accountability. And people should be able to demand answers. And get given them.

 

[Bald Rick]

Absolutely. But that misses the point. When did Eurostar move (2007 wasn't it)? What happened in the intervening nine years ? They announced real work on site in 2016 to start in 2017. And they knew it was going twenty years ago.

Irrespective of whether NR did HS1 or St Pancras, why did it take almost a decade plus AFTER moving for NR to start doing anything. The planning could and should have been done before. And whilst not stop trains Sunday, start work Monday, nine years ? When britain's busiest station was desperate for capacity? It is widely reported that NR had NO plans at all for reuse of the platforms on closure. Instead we've had ridiculous plays being staged, and now we are stuck with an improved Waterloo that's is actually worse than before until the Eurostar platforms get opened .... how can it take so long? Why are people not accountable for this state of affairs ?

We are passengers, we simply cannot comprehend the lack of joined up thinking that leaves a mess of our busiest station, has stakeholders with no ideas for reuse and has a prime infrastructure asset left to deteriorate when we are herded like cattle and suffer ever slower commuter trains and ever more delays and ever increasing fares.

Hopefully it will be on time and on budget to be complete..... will it ?

Sorry, but there simply needs to be accountability. And people should be able to demand answers. And get given them.

Work didn’t start straight away because of the simple matter of ownership. NR didn’t own the international station. You can imagine the scene if you own a semi detached house, and you start knocking down the other half of the semi when you don’t own it.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

They ran some Kent services last year from the middle patforms and they seemed to be ok.

 

[Antman]

Yet I can put in planning permission for a house I don’t own on land I have no interest in. And can contract to build on something I don’t own. It happens every single day (indeed I have done it myself). NR is state owned. The land fell out of BR Properties (I might pull a Land Registry Search and take a look when it changed hands if I get time today). But let’s run with the suggestion that NR didn’t have legal ownership until 2017. So why did it take so long for a) ownership to be with NR and b) so long to work out what on earth to do with the platforms.

That cannot all be laid at the door of the politicians, or NR, or the civil servants. Individually. But it sure as hell can be levelled at all of them as a collective.
Politicians because politicians and they find the money for a balcony for the Olympics to avoid congestion (so they claim)

Civil servants and NR because this is their job, to plan, to work out what’s needed and to deliver it.

 

[Tio Terry]

Yet I can put in planning permission for a house I don’t own on land I have no interest in. And can contract to build on something I don’t own. It happens every single day (indeed I have done it myself). NR is state owned. The land fell out of BR Properties (I might pull a Land Registry Search and take a look when it changed hands if I get time today). But let’s run with the suggestion that NR didn’t have legal ownership until 2017. So why did it take so long for a) ownership to be with NR and b) so long to work out what on earth to do with the platforms.

That cannot all be laid at the door of the politicians, or NR, or the civil servants. Individually. But it sure as hell can be levelled at all of them as a collective.
Politicians because politicians and they find the money for a balcony for the Olympics to avoid congestion (so they claim)

Civil servants and NR because this is their job, to plan, to work out what’s needed and to deliver it.

WIT was owned by London & Continental Railways who wanted a lot of money for it. NR couldn't afford it from their budget and, frankly, didn't want it. The roof is a maintenance headache and always will be. SWT (as it was then) decided they didn't have a long enough franchise to be able to make money out of it. So there was nothing to drive forward the conversion to a domestic station. Eventually the DfT stepped in when they wanted to be able to run more trains in and out of Waterloo.

Not quite sure what you mean by "work out what on earth to do with the platforms" because they were always going to be for trains to stop at. But the layout outside of the station didn't not allow access to or from the mainlines, only the Windsors because thats where the E*'s came and went from so there had to be significant layout changes for track, signalling and electrification, this meant the platforms needed shortening. Much of the business case justifying the conversion comes from the commercial development of the undercroft and getting that past the DfT was not an easy thing to do!

 

[Antman]

And who owns LCR ? That's right, it's publicly owned. Companies House is currently not giving me who its initial subscribers were and the chain of ownership (to see if it's ever changed). So (unless shown to be privately owned in the relevant past), it was public body versus public body. And where does public interest come into it. You say NR didn't want it - NR's job is to plan for the future and to build and maintain it. It should have seen that demand would grow; it should have seen that it would be necessary to utilise those platforms - isn't that a large part of its job ?

There was always going to need to be changes to the throat (to track and no doubt especially signalling).

the business case would have had to pass Labour and Coalition governments. So, if we apportion some civil servant/political blame, are we saying that NR tried to put forward a case, but was told no by the other appratchiks. And until they could rent out the space below, then it wasn't happening..... so what about the passengers ?

The franchisee is always hamstrung, because they operate in such a well regimented and restricted sphere.... that doesn't absolve them - I suspect they could and should have done more, but ultimately they will say they were proved right ...... Stagecoach lost the franchise....

As for 'work out what to do with the platforms' - the problem is that, by your own words, NR frankly didn't want it. So irrespective of the platforms being for trains, it's prime London real estate; how were there not many, many plans for what to do with it..... instead of doing something, it seemingly lay there, fallow and unwanted. Through a massive boom and rise in asset prices. What sort of decision was that ? [irrespective of who made it]

 

[swt_passenger]

If you go through the enhancement delivery plans over many years, starting around 2009, I think the situation was always a bit “chicken and egg”. DfT and SWT brinkmanship meant that until a deal for extra rolling stock was agreed work on the platforms would never start, but at the same time SWT wouldn’t commit to extra rolling stock without somewhere to use them. Fleet increases under SWT were never quite as large as originally tendered, so the need for platforms was delayed, then there was a short period when P1&2 were going to be closed for 10 car, with everything moved over by 2 platforms into the international side. Then that all changed and wasn’t needed any more.

In summary, they couldn’t have done what is now in place 10 years ago, as there no known final plans back then.

Despite much media speculation, I don’t think there were ever firm plans to lose the platforms. References to selling the “international terminal” were always about the 3 levels beneath the tracks.

 

[ijmad]

I'd be interested if anyone had images/plans of Waterloo's layout before the international terminal was built. I've seen a few videos from the ThamesTV archive on YouTube but they're not very revealing. Just think it'd make for an interesting comparison.

There are a few shots in this video of the train shed that existed before and a signalling layout or two, but any more info welcome! E.g. what these platforms were used for. Did the spare capacity arise from the decline in BR passenger numbers in the 1990s?

 

[swt_passenger]

I'd be interested if anyone had images/plans of Waterloo's layout before the international terminal was built. I've seen a few videos from the ThamesTV archive on YouTube but they're not very revealing. Just think it'd make for an interesting comparison.

There are a few shots in this video of the train shed that existed before and a signalling layout or two, but any more info welcome! E.g. what these platforms were used for. Did the spare capacity arise from the decline in BR passenger numbers in the 1990s?

We were discussing it in the “nostalgia” forum a few days ago, in a thread which started out about ‘cab roads’, such as at old St Pancras.
There was a link provided to some good info about the station including the post-1922 platform layout, which effectively lasted until the international station alterations:
http://www.crjennings.com/Railway Structures London/Waterloo/Waterloo Index.html#lswa1a
It wasn’t as simple as just closing a few existing platforms, and building over them. There were also offices demolished, and platforms were added in the middle of the station by narrowing the cab road. There were 21 platforms before, then 24 (19 main and 5 international) after the works.

 

[ijmad]

We were discussing it in the “nostalgia” forum a few days ago, in a thread which started out about ‘cab roads’, such as at old St Pancras.
There was a link provided to some good info about the station including the post-1922 platform layout, which effectively lasted until the international station alterations:
http://www.crjennings.com/Railway Structures London/Waterloo/Waterloo Index.html#lswa1a
It wasn’t as simple as just closing a few existing platforms, and building over them. There were also offices demolished, and platforms were added in the middle of the station by narrowing the cab road. There were 21 platforms before, then 24 (19 main and 5 international) after the works.

Very nice, thanks! I'll go visit the Nostalgia forum myself to avoid this thread getting too far off topic

 

[Tio Terry]

And who owns LCR ? That's right, it's publicly owned. Companies House is currently not giving me who its initial subscribers were and the chain of ownership (to see if it's ever changed). So (unless shown to be privately owned in the relevant past), it was public body versus public body. And where does public interest come into it. You say NR didn't want it - NR's job is to plan for the future and to build and maintain it. It should have seen that demand would grow; it should have seen that it would be necessary to utilise those platforms - isn't that a large part of its job ?

There was always going to need to be changes to the throat (to track and no doubt especially signalling).

the business case would have had to pass Labour and Coalition governments. So, if we apportion some civil servant/political blame, are we saying that NR tried to put forward a case, but was told no by the other appratchiks. And until they could rent out the space below, then it wasn't happening..... so what about the passengers ?

The franchisee is always hamstrung, because they operate in such a well regimented and restricted sphere.... that doesn't absolve them - I suspect they could and should have done more, but ultimately they will say they were proved right ...... Stagecoach lost the franchise....

As for 'work out what to do with the platforms' - the problem is that, by your own words, NR frankly didn't want it. So irrespective of the platforms being for trains, it's prime London real estate; how were there not many, many plans for what to do with it..... instead of doing something, it seemingly lay there, fallow and unwanted. Through a massive boom and rise in asset prices. What sort of decision was that ? [irrespective of who made it]

London & Continental is, without doubt, government owned and always has been - but I don't know which part of government owns it.

The ORR, with the TOC's, are responsible for developing future traffic plans, not NR. NR only become part of the process when the existing network does not have the capacity to run the services that the ORR and TOC require, then they are asked what can be done to increase capacity to meet the new plans. WIT was not part of NR until these latest modifications so they would have taken no interest in it, indeed, they had no budget to even maintain it. Plans to bring it in to domestic use were first made between SWT and the ORR, at some stage DfT became involved (probably on behalf of L&C) and only after those stakeholders had satisfied themselves that the idea was sound did they bring NR in to the discussions. By that time the idea of exploiting the undercroft to finance the alterations was already being explored, NR contributed to the business case.

Exploitation of the "prime London real estate" would be something for the owners to address - L&C - not NR who had no interest in it.

 

[randompixel]

I departed from platform 20 last Thursday and the covers had been opened up to reveal an escalator. I guess these may have been in place since Eurostar days but it does look like they are looking to get them working again.

When the blockade was on, passengers from the Waterloo & City corridor were directed up and out through that way. The corridors looked pretty complete and the escalators looked new (or very clean). I know this because I accidentally went this way then my ticket wouldn't let me back out the new barrier line. Stupidly this was the only photo I took then though - shiney lights more interesting than a corridor.