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Keolis Amey Wales - Future Rolling Stock

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Cardiff123

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Current edition of Modern Railways fills in some more blanks.

14 X 3 car CAF's will be introduced as standard only and then have First Class sections retrofitted in them for Dec 2024 launch of 1st Class on Manchester to Swansea services. So enough of them to fulfill hourly service.
The Milford Haven services will be 2 car units detaching/attaching at Swansea. Other West Wales services will be 3 car Class 170's plus 2 car 170's on HOW.
Only 21 x 2 car CAF's will be fitted with ETCS. Is that pool big enough for Cambrian/Birmingham/ 2 hourly to Holyhead?
So there's no capacity increase on the Cambrian if 2 car 158s are being replaced with 2 car CAF DMUs?
 
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craigybagel

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Won’t that limit flexibility only fitting 21?

No more so then they are now, limited to only using 158s. So long as those units are kept on Cambrian services that should be more then enough - you can safely assume TfW have done the maths.

So there's no capacity increase on the Cambrian if 2 car 158s are being replaced with 2 car CAF DMUs?

Extra capacity will come from running hourly all day long.

It's also worth pointing out that if TfW really have got their maths wrong, it shouldn't be too hard to retrofit ERTMS to more units, given the units concerned will be being designed from the start for it, it shouldn't be anywhere near as hard as it was to put it into 158s.
 

sw1ller

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Keeping the ERTMS to a limited number of units is a god send. NR have stated, that if ERTMS is fitted and working correctly, then it must be used at all times. That’s why changing ends at Birmingham international, for example, takes time. You have to wait for the ERTMS to load up, even if you’re using it in level 0 (zero). Shunting round the depots and quick turn around will be much easier and faster now along with all the splitting/attaching at Shrewsbury etc. If you’ve ever been on a 158 and heard the ‘ready to depart’ buzzer but no movement for 2 minutes, you now know why. Even longer if you end up over some grids.
 

sw1ller

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Keeping the ERTMS to a limited number of units is a god send. NR have stated, that if ERTMS is fitted and working correctly, then it must be used at all times. That’s why changing ends at Birmingham international, for example, takes time. You have to wait for the ERTMS to load up, even if you’re using it in level 0 (zero). Shunting round the depots and quick turn arounds will be much easier and faster now along with all the splitting/attaching at Shrewsbury etc. If you’ve ever been on a 158 and heard the ‘ready to depart’ buzzer but no movement for 2 minutes, you now know why. Even longer if you end up over some grids.
 

craigybagel

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Keeping the ERTMS to a limited number of units is a god send. NR have stated, that if ERTMS is fitted and working correctly, then it must be used at all times. That’s why changing ends at Birmingham international, for example, takes time. You have to wait for the ERTMS to load up, even if you’re using it in level 0 (zero). Shunting round the depots and quick turn around will be much easier and faster now along with all the splitting/attaching at Shrewsbury etc. If you’ve ever been on a 158 and heard the ‘ready to depart’ buzzer but no movement for 2 minutes, you now know why. Even longer if you end up over some grids.

Not to mention the issue of radio interference at Wooferton which after 7 years still hasn't been fixed.
 

Philip

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14 units for the Manchester-Swansea service is a bit surplus since the service can be covered with 9 diagrams (and even more easily once it is speeded up). I wonder if the plan is to have 9 for the Manchester services, 2 for maintenance and 3 to cover the Holyhead-Cardiff services which won't be loco hauled?
 

Cardiff123

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14 units for the Manchester-Swansea service is a bit surplus since the service can be covered with 9 diagrams (and even more easily once it is speeded up). I wonder if the plan is to have 9 for the Manchester services, 2 for maintenance and 3 to cover the Holyhead-Cardiff services which won't be loco hauled?
Don't forget there will be the new Cardiff - Liverpool 1tp2h services as well.
 

krus_aragon

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Don't forget there will be the new Cardiff - Liverpool 1tp2h services as well.
3 units wouldn't stretch very far in providing a First Class service for Liverpool-Cardiff. (At least on the Holyhead-Cardiff, even though it's only three trains a day, you've got the distinction of loco-hauled stock and a full kitchen for catering.)
 

Cardiff123

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3 units wouldn't stretch very far in providing a First Class service for Liverpool-Cardiff. (At least on the Holyhead-Cardiff, even though it's only three trains a day, you've got the distinction of loco-hauled stock and a full kitchen for catering.)
Is Cardiff - Liverpool going to have a first class section?
 

sw1ller

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Is Cardiff - Liverpool going to have a first class section?
Not unless you mean Manchester, no. Shame really, but who’s going from Liverpool to Cardiff??? I believe that service will be split up. Passengers Liverpool to Chester and then normal working south there of.
 

Envoy

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Not unless you mean Manchester, no. Shame really, but who’s going from Liverpool to Cardiff??? I believe that service will be split up. Passengers Liverpool to Chester and then normal working south there of.
We could well find Bristol (& south - west) passengers heading to Liverpool going to Newport and then up The Marches route to reach Liverpool if the prices undercut those charged by Cross Country. Of course, it also depends upon the timings/length of journey and the quality of the trains.

Is it the intention to have the south Wales to Liverpool trains split at Chester with one section going to Holyhead? (That being in addition to the 3 loco hauled sets of former East Coast stock).
 

krus_aragon

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Is Cardiff - Liverpool going to have a first class section?
Not that I'm aware. I got the impression that you were suggesting it (though on re-reading you may just have been pointing out the general rolling stock requirements).

Is it the intention to have the south Wales to Liverpool trains split at Chester with one section going to Holyhead? (That being in addition to the 3 loco hauled sets of former East Coast stock).
All ex-Liverpool trains will split at Chester. One portion will run to Llandudno, the other will go to Shrewsbury, continuing to Cardiff in alternate hours.

Manchester services will be redirected to Bangor, giving it 2tph. Holyhead will keep its current 1tp2h to Cardiff (including the loco-hauled) and presumably the other 1tp2h service that currently runs to Birmingham.
 
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Gareth Marston

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Quite some decrease, I'd imagine. Though I half recall talk that it would become 4 coaches to Aber with a separate shuttle for Pwllheli? Could do with being 6, certainly in summer.

They've committed to running through trains from Pwllheli to Birmingham 4/5 a day so it should be 4 2 4 2 4 from/ to Shrewsbury at peak times.

The real need is extra carriages between Shrewsbury and Birmingham at peak times
 

Philip

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If 21 units are to be used only for Cambrian services (so Birmingham-Holyhead services on separate diagrams), then I would think it'll be minimum 4-coach formations on all Birmingham-Aberystwyth services, with 6-coach formations to Dovey Junction when splitting for Pwllhelli and for all peak time trains between Shrewsbury-Birmingham.
 

Llanigraham

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6 car to Dovey Junction to split isn't very practical when the Pwllheli trains use one platform and the Aber the other. They have to split at Machy.
 

Gareth Marston

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If 21 units are to be used only for Cambrian services (so Birmingham-Holyhead services on separate diagrams), then I would think it'll be minimum 4-coach formations on all Birmingham-Aberystwyth services, with 6-coach formations to Dovey Junction when splitting for Pwllhelli and for all peak time trains between Shrewsbury-Birmingham.

The inbound service from Holyhead forms the Pwllheli portion of the next westbound service at International and vice versa in the other direction. The two are linked it doesn't work otherwise.
 

craigybagel

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The inbound service from Holyhead forms the Pwllheli portion of the next westbound service at International and vice versa in the other direction. The two are linked it doesn't work otherwise.

But if the timetable gets recast.....

Given that there are currently 24 158s, of which 3 spend the day away from the Cambrian, this suggests that 21 won't be enough to offer any improvements over the current situation on the Cambrian if Interworking with Birmingham - Holyhead continues as well. As we know the Cambrian is due to go hourly - then even before you get on to the issue of potentially lengthening trains you've got a shortage of units. TfW aren't stupid - they will have done the maths and worked out that they can make the full Cambrian service work with 21 units. Ergo......
 

krus_aragon

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That, and also the fact that the Holyhead-Birmingham service was conspicuous in its absence from the new franchise announcements in June.

At the time, we concluded that it must remain, because just 1tp2h (Cardiff) was absurdly low for Holyhead, and the claimed hourly Cambrian was only from Aber to "Shrewsbury", not Birmingham.

Gareth has since confirmed that the hourly service will indeed operate through to Birmingham, so perhaps it's time to re-evaluate what'll happen to the Holyhead-Birmingham in a timetable recast.
 

Along the bay

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That, and also the fact that the Holyhead-Birmingham service was conspicuous in its absence from the new franchise announcements in June.

At the time, we concluded that it must remain, because just 1tp2h (Cardiff) was absurdly low for Holyhead, and the claimed hourly Cambrian was only from Aber to "Shrewsbury", not Birmingham.

Gareth has since confirmed that the hourly service will indeed operate through to Birmingham, so perhaps it's time to re-evaluate what'll happen to the Holyhead-Birmingham in a timetable recast.
I would cut the service back to Chester it's a ridiculous route and it's easier for people from North Wales to go to Crewe and use virgin or LNWR
 

berneyarms

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I would cut the service back to Chester it's a ridiculous route and it's easier for people from North Wales to go to Crewe and use virgin or LNWR
The service is more than linking Birmingham with the North Wales Coast.

What about anyone going to Wrexham and points along the Chester-Shrewsbury line?

This service is really about connecting all the intermediate points along the route.
 
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Bletchleyite

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I would cut the service back to Chester it's a ridiculous route and it's easier for people from North Wales to go to Crewe and use virgin or LNWR

My personal preference would be to lop at Chester (as it used to be) and instead run that service through to Crewe, replacing the shuttle. This could require somewhat of a recast, though.
 

Gareth Marston

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But if the timetable gets recast.....

Given that there are currently 24 158s, of which 3 spend the day away from the Cambrian, this suggests that 21 won't be enough to offer any improvements over the current situation on the Cambrian if Interworking with Birmingham - Holyhead continues as well. As we know the Cambrian is due to go hourly - then even before you get on to the issue of potentially lengthening trains you've got a shortage of units. TfW aren't stupid - they will have done the maths and worked out that they can make the full Cambrian service work with 21 units. Ergo......

Theirs a couple of 158's in the North Wales to Manchester diagrams as well to factor in.
 

Gareth Marston

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Still on a brighter note - and boy do we need it - it looks like Carwyn has got cold feet on lumbering Wales with the M4 Relief Road as his parting present.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-46334232
The final decision on building a £1.4bn M4 relief road in south Wales may be made by the next first minister, Carwyn Jones has admitted.

Wales' current leader said the Welsh Government had received the 580-page report from the planning inspector after a 13-month public inquiry.

Mr Jones had previously said he would make the decision but he is due to step down in December.

"The decision cannot be rushed," Mr Jones told BBC Radio Wales.
 

PHILIPE

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I'm beginning to wonder now following some recent posts re numbers of units if TFW are trying to put some spin on it. When going into the finer details, will there be more accomodation overall. If they say that more trains are coming they are not actually lying.
 

berneyarms

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My personal preference would be to lop at Chester (as it used to be) and instead run that service through to Crewe, replacing the shuttle. This could require somewhat of a recast, though.
That would conflict it with the North Wales coast to Manchester and v.v. services for which the timings are pretty much cast in stone.

The shuttle connects into and out of that service.
 

sw1ller

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I would cut the service back to Chester it's a ridiculous route and it's easier for people from North Wales to go to Crewe and use virgin or LNWR

This was exactly what I did this weekend. Even though it was free for me to go via Shrewsbury, I went via Stafford instead as it’s such a better route. (Shame my connection at Crewe was cancelled on the was home but that’s for another thread!!)

I don’t get this need for zero changes. Aber to Birmingham would be such a better service if everyone changed at Shrewsbury. All this splitting units and reattaching is a joke. The same applies elsewhere. As long as the connections are good, 5-10 minutes, then what’s the issue? Enough time for everyone to change trans, stretch legs or get a brew.

I’m not saying get shut of them all, still keep some. Of course this needs to be worked closely with disabled assistance and step free access to ensure no one is inconvenienced unfairly but that’s what the 5 billion quid is for init?
 

krus_aragon

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I don’t get this need for zero changes. Aber to Birmingham would be such a better service if everyone changed at Shrewsbury. All this splitting units and reattaching is a joke. The same applies elsewhere. As long as the connections are good, 5-10 minutes, then what’s the issue? Enough time for everyone to change trans, stretch legs or get a brew.
The perceived inconvenience is probably the fact that (excluding the token VT service to Shrewsbury) all the Cambrian would be two changes from London.

If Shrewsbury were to get a regular hourly London service (as seen at Chester), there'd be less resistance to such a move. But that's not going to happen with VT's current fleet.
 
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