Help with getting £669.60 refunded after i was sold the wrong ticket and fined a Penalty Fare also.

[countrysider]

Can anyone give any advice about something which happened about three months ago. Six of us (myself and five others) were travelling from St Albans to Millbrook (Bedfordshire) and back again on the same day. I was paying for everyone.

So we arrive at the station and i go to the ticket office and ask for six Adult Anytime Day Return tickets from St Albans to Millbrook which the ticket lady sells with no problems and no questions asked. Just a simple normal transaction. They cost £67.70 each (costing £406.20 total). I was travelling in the peak so needed "Anytime" tickets. So i get my tickets and we all get on the train and everything seem fine and normal.

Just after departing a ticket inspector comes along checking everyone's tickets. So we show him our tickets and this is where the problems start. He tells us that we have tickets to Millbrook in Hampshire and that they are not valid on this train and we are going in the wrong direction.

Now i had no idea there was another station called Millbrook. I just saw that my tickets said Millbrook so i thought we had the right tickets. I didn't know what the "(Hants)" part meant. The ticket office lady just sold us these tickets without any questions. She didn't ask if we were going to the Millbrook in Bedfordshire or the one in Hampshire

I explained to him that we were going to Millbrook in Bedfordshire and i had no idea that we were sold tickets to another station called Millbrook in Hampshire (which i didn't even know existed). I told him that the ticket office lady sold them without even asking which Millbrook we wanted. He told us it was our responsibility to ensure we were sold the correct ticket and told us he was going to fine us a Penalty Fare of £20.00 each (so £120.00 total). No matter how much arguing we did he wouldn't change his mind and threatened to report us for prosecution if we didn't pay the Penalty Fare.

So as we really had no other option i agreed to pay it and gave him £120.00 which he took and told us to get off at the next station at Luton and purchase another ticket if we want to continue our travels towards Millbrook in Bedfordshire.

He didn't take any of our details as we paid it on the spot. I asked him for a receipt but he said he couldn't give one as his receipt pad had run out. So i was very annoyed to have paid £120.00 and not even have any receipt or proof of it.

We then all get off the train at Luton and i go to the ticket office to buy the correct ticket. I purchased six Adult Anytime Day Return tickets from St Albans to Millbrook in Bedfordshire for £23.90 each (costing £143.40 total). So we then get back on another train to continue our journey. By time we get to Bedford we have now missed our connecting train and therefore have to wait almost an hour for the next one which turns out to be cancelled due to a train fault (the one we were suppose to catch was on time) so we have to get the one after. So we end up waiting in Bedford for almost two hours.

Finally we end up arriving at our final destination (Millbrook in Bedfordshire) a total of two hours and six minutes late.

I ended up spending £669.60 total on that day when all i should have spent was £143.40 total. Note that i hadn't been to Millbrook by train for years so i had no idea how much it was meant to cost which is why i didn't question the £67.70 each fares.

In total i spent:
• £120.00 (6 x £20.00) - Penalty Fare
• £143.40 (6 x £23.90) - St Albans to Millbrook (Bed)
• £406.20 (6 x £67.70) - St Albans to Millbrook (Ham)
= £669.60 total

I believe i should get a refund of all £669.60 that i spent. I should get the £406.20 refunded because it was the wrong ticket. I should get the £143.40 refunded because we were over two hours late. I should get the £120.00 refunded because we shouldn't have been fined a Penalty Fare. Surely it is the responsibility of the ticket office lady to tell me that there are two Millbrook stations and ask which one i want rather than just choosing one without asking? How am i meant to know there are two Millbrook stations?

The next day i emailed Thameslink customer service (who are known for being very slow at replying) exposing the whole situation. After a few weeks i get a reply saying that they have no record of these Penalty Fare being issued. They say that they checked their systems and can't see

I told them again about the whole situation and how he didn't give me a receipt because his receipt pad had run out. But all Thameslink have said is that they are unable to investigate this matter as they have no record of the Penalty Fare.

So if they have no record of it then what on earth did the ticket inspector do with my £120.00 that i gave him? Did he just pocket it himself thinking that because his receipt pad had run out he could get away with not recording it?

I asked them to check the on train CCTV (which will show the ticket inspector dealing with us) to identify the ticket inspector and speak to him. But i was told that they were unable to as CCTV footage can only be viewed when a crime has been committed. I have now sent eight emails back and fourth to Thameslink and nothing is getting sorted. Their customer service department is just useless and very unhelpful.

So what should i do? How do i get my £669.60 back? Should i take legal action against Thameslink? Should i email their CEO directly?

Sorry for the long post and thank you for any information and help that you can give me.

 

[najaB]

I asked him for a receipt but he said he couldn't give one as his receipt pad had run out. So i was very annoyed to have paid £120.00 and not even have any receipt or proof of it.

This is disturbing as (a) you don't have to pay a penalty fare on the spot; and (b) a receipt is mandatory if and when a penalty fare is issued.

I believe i should get a refund of all £669.60 that i spent. I should get the £406.20 refunded because it was the wrong ticket. I should get the £143.40 refunded because we were over two hours late. I should get the £120.00 refunded because we shouldn't have been fined a Penalty Fare.

I agree with the £120 and the £406, but would need to consult running times to be sure that you're entitled to 100% in Delay Repay.

Surely it is the responsibility of the ticket office lady to tell me that there are two Millbrook stations and ask which one i want rather than just choosing one without asking? How am i meant to know there are two Millbrook stations?

Technically it's your responsibility to ensure that you've got the right tickets but how could you do so if there's more than on station with the same name. How are the stations referred to generally in the railway world?

 

[Silverdale]

Technically it's your responsibility to ensure that you've got the right tickets but how could you do so if there's more than on station with the same name.

Exactly.

You should have been asked; "Which Millbrook?"

 

[robbeech]

I don’t think I’ve seen a topic on here that has suggested a member of railway staff may well have kept funds charged as penalty fares or other such money. It is a concern to say the least. I would agree with what has been said. Maybe you could have been a little more proactive and checked the prices before hand if you have the tickets still you could upload a photo of one here so we can see how easy it might be to misinterpret the destination.

 

[Starmill]

Are you completely certain that the person inspecting tickets on the train was an Authorised Collector? Were they wearing Thameslink uniform? Did they have an ID badge? Did you pay cash or card?

If you aren't sure who they were, and you paid in cash, and the company says this Penalty Fare doesn't exist, then my advice would probably be to report this to the police. Think carefully about what they were wearing though first.

Submit an initial delay repay claim within the 28 day deadline too. Even if its rejected you can escalate later, just make sure you're in within the time limit.

But i was told that they were unable to as CCTV footage can only be viewed when a crime has been committed.

This sounds totally made up to me.

 

[Haywain]

Exactly.

You should have been asked; "Which Millbrook?"

Not "which Millbrook" but "Millbrook Hampshire or Millbrook Bedfordshire?" Important to be clear on what the options are.

 

[robbeech]

It’s worth noting that this incident is apparently 3 months old. A long time has elapsed so the normal procedures might be more difficult.

 

[Starmill]

It’s worth noting that this incident is apparently 3 months old. A long time has elapsed so the normal procedures might be more difficult.

Oops. I missed that I'm afraid.

In that case, anticipate great difficulty in getting your money back.

One thing that you can do that's free is refer the case to Transport Focus. I reccomend this because its free, but it would be over-optimistic to expect them to be able to facilitate the return of almost £700. Going to the new rail Ombudsman isn't an option.

 

[cuccir]

I think you need to escalate this complaint to a more senior level at Thameslink. The accusation about the £120 is very serious, and the issue with the incorrect station not great, though perhaps a more understandable human error.

 

[sheff1]

I told them again about the whole situation and how he didn't give me a receipt because his receipt pad had run out. But all Thameslink have said is that they are unable to investigate this matter as they have no record of the Penalty Fare.

Thameslink are, of course, able to investigate anything they choose regarding their staff/services. Any self respecting organisation should surely consider a claim that £120 had been handed to one of their staff (or somebody purporting to be such), but finding no subsequent record of it being paid in, to be worthy of some sort of further digging.

I will leave suggestions on how to pursue the matter to those more knowledgeable on the subject.

 

[big all]

ok my thoughts
no expert at all
you got as far as luton so he should either have
A-- believed you and sorted it out to the correct price as such and paper evidence from him to allow you to sort it out at a later date
B --not beleived you charged you full fair for the portion not covered to that point and tell you to get off to get the correct ticket sorted out for the rest off the journey
==================================================

ahhh ok ignore my comments i had somehow had you joined at eastleigh for some reason

 

[Mag_seven]

He told us it was our responsibility to ensure we were sold the correct ticket and told us he was going to fine us a Penalty Fare of £20.00 each (so £120.00 total). No matter how much arguing we did he wouldn't change his mind and threatened to report us for prosecution if we didn't pay the Penalty Fare.

I would have thought that any bona fide inspector would realise the error the booking clerk had made, let you travel on the tickets and encourage you to claim a refund to the correct fare once the journey was complete. Its not as if you were trying to pull a fast one by trying to go to Millbrook (Hants) with Millbrook (Beds) tickets! You were out of pocket, not the railway. I smell a rat here.

 

[gray1404]

Do you still hold the tickets that you were sold by the ticket offices or have photos of them? I think there would be more chance of getting these refunded.

Did you pay cash for everything on the day concerned or did you pay on a card for anything?

Totally shocking that any RPI would take PF money off you and refuse to give a receipt. I assume all members of your party witnessed the whole exchange and would be willing to give statements too the police, all of you?

I would be phoning the Police if I was you.

 

[furlong]

If the train company has no record of the transaction then it becomes a police matter - the train company should have recommended you report this to the police, and you should do so without delay. If the pad had run out then no penalty fare could be charged - and all bone fide authorised collectors will know this - and it's very unlikely that their pads would run out! Either this was an imposter (and not a current railway employee) or it was a railway employee cheating his employer. You'll probably need to provide a witness statement, with a description of the individual, which they can compare against the descriptions of any past or present railway staff known to be operating in that area, and any other similar reports they receive from other passengers.

 

[furlong]

The regulations could not be clearer:

(4) Where a person described in paragraph (3) is not provided with written confirmation of payment, that person is entitled to an immediate refund of the amount paid

 

[bb21]

I can only echo the comments about reporting the matter to the police. I also think Thameslink senior management would be very interested in such an incident. This is one of those rare cases which I think going to senior management directly would be productive for.

Three months in I doubt you'd have a good chance of retrieving CCTV footage, but it is worth a try. Do you have any description for the person which can help Thameslink track him down? Aside from that, as there is no receipt or any other proof, the chance of seeing that money again is likely to be small.

If this turned out to be fraud and not committed by a Thameslink employee, I don't think you are entitled to the correct fare for the journey back, but you are certainly entitled to get the fare paid for the incorrect tickets refunded.

 

[countrysider]

Thank you for all your replies. This is very helpful.

I do indeed remember what he looked like. He looked very legit. He was wearing uniform with both a shirt and a hi viz jacket that had the company logo on them. I suppose you can probably purchase this stuff on ebay these days so i can't be 100% sure but he certainly looked legit.

He also had one of those new ticket machine things on him (its the blue ticket printer he had which i think is used with a smartphone or tablet).

Additionally he also seemed to have quite a good knowledge of the railways in order to spot the ticket error and know i was travelling in the wrong direction. So all of this makes me think that he was most likely a legit ticket inspector.

Yes i still have all the tickets (both the Millbrook Bedfordshire ones and the Millbrook Hampshire ones). I also included photos of them in my email to Thameslink. I paid for all the tickets and penalty fares on that day using cash.

I told Thameslink all my journey details so i am wondering would Thameslink have any record of that ticket inspector being on my train? I know they say they don't have a record of any penalty fare but i am wondering if they would have a record of a ticket inspector being on that train i was on? Perhaps i should ask that? Are ticket inspectors allocated to certain journeys each day or do they just have the freedom to inspect tickets on whichever trains they wish?

I think i will definitely make a police report. I hadn't thought of that but that seems like a very good idea. As Thameslink are being useless in helping me i think this is indeed the best option. I am sure the other people i was travelling with would be more than happy to give a statement.

After doing some searching i have found this email address of the CEO - [email protected] - so i think i will send an email to him as well and see what he (or whoever responds to his emails) has to say.

I am definitely going to do whatever i can to solve this and get my refund. There is no way i am letting Thameslink get away with this.

 

[furlong]

Yes, the company should have records of where all its staff were, including roving staff.

 

[GusB]

This could probably all have been avoided if the person selling the original tickets had established which Millbrook was the correct destination.

Technically it's your responsibility to ensure that you've got the right tickets but how could you do so if there's more than on station with the same name. How are the stations referred to generally in the railway world?

You should have been asked; "Which Millbrook?"

Blackburn is one example of one name, many places. I worked for directory enquiries some years ago and while Blackburn (Aberdeenshire) was geographically the closest (and we'd be first in line to deal with a "local" call, Blackburn (West Lothian) would feature because we handled overspill calls from other centres. It was something we couldn't take for granted, even though people got annoyed because you had to ask (when they clearly meant the locality closest to them). We didn't have to deal with requests for Blackburn (Lancashire) on a regular basis, but we still had to ask.

 

[robbeech]

I must ask, and I think it’s important to establish why as any authority is going to ask this question. Why have you left it so long?

 

[district]

In my experience RPOs are free to inspect tickets on any train on a given line of route, but make a note in their pocket note books of which trains they work. These notebooks are recallable by GTR when they are investigating.

You can email [email protected] if you want to make a report as this may be easier than explaining all the details over the phone.

 

[TubeMapCentral]

Is it not possible to identify the ticket machine, and therefore the user of the ticket machine, from the tickets themselves?

And why isn't issuing a penalty via the ticket machine? Then there would be a full paper trail.

 

[IanD]

I asked them to check the on train CCTV (which will show the ticket inspector dealing with us) to identify the ticket inspector and speak to him. But i was told that they were unable to as CCTV footage can only be viewed when a crime has been committed.

Even if this statement is true (which I doubt), your account and later info from Thameslink would suggest that a crime has been committed as someone seems to have pocketed £120.

 

[30907]

I must ask, and I think it’s important to establish why as any authority is going to ask this question. Why have you left it so long?

The OP says there has been an extensive exchange of mails with GTR.

Even if this statement is true (which I doubt), your account and later info from Thameslink would suggest that a crime has been committed as someone seems to have pocketed £120.

Alternatively, there will be a substantial discrepancy between the cash amount paid in at the end of shift and the sales recorded.

The whole thing sounds very unusual, including the large cash payments, and I hope the OP and their colleagues have retained some or all of the tickets concerned.

 

[IanD]

The OP says there has been an extensive exchange of mails with GTR.



Alternatively, there will be a substantial discrepancy between the cash amount paid in at the end of shift and the sales recorded.

The whole thing sounds very unusual, including the large cash payments, and I hope the OP and their colleagues have retained some or all of the tickets concerned.

Yes, I should have said "a crime may have been committed"

 

[Deafdoggie]

Anyone can request CCTV footage in which they appear under a GDPR request to the company. The company can charge a fee for this. There is no need to commit a crime to make the request! A gentle reminder to them of their legal obligations under GDPR may be advisable, as the fines are considerable if they get it wrong!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Anyone can request CCTV footage in which they appear under a GDPR request to the company. The company can charge a fee for this. There is no need to commit a crime to make the request! A gentle reminder to them of their legal obligations under GDPR may be advisable, as the fines are considerable if they get it wrong!

The company cannot charge a fee for the request (see Article 12(5)), unless requests are "manifestly unfounded or excessive, in particular because of their repetitive character".

One, single request for CCTV footage in a case like this would never even approach that level.

I rather more suspect that the footage is long deleted.

 

[robbeech]

The OP says there has been an extensive exchange of mails with GTR.

My apologies I had missed this point.

 

[Haywain]

I rather more suspect that the footage is long deleted.

I think that by now that will be an absolute certainty.

 

[najaB]

I rather more suspect that the footage is long deleted.

I hope it has!