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Railway in Cheshire unable to cope with extra traffic caused by council subsidy bus cuts

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pemma

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There used to be subsided bus services from St Nicholas High to Lostock Gralam, Knutsford and Mobberley and from Hartford C of E High to Lostock Gralam, now there aren't and almost everyone gets on the train but the train can't cope. This also isn't a new problem - it existed under the old franchise.

Northern do manage to put two 'Travel Safe Officers' at Greenbank in the afternoon who stop pupils getting too close to the edge of the platform and remove people from trains when they are so full the doors can't close. However, 2 extra carriages would be much better.

Northwich Guardian said:
CONCERNS have been raised over safety at Greenbank station.

St Nicholas High School staff have taken the issue of overcrowding of pupils on the platforms – due to a lack of carriages – to Weaver Vale MP Mike Amesbury.

With three large high schools and a number of primary and SEND schools all within walking distance of the station, Mike has called on the company to provide extra train carriages and increase staffing.

He said: “The station is extensively used during these periods as pupils are trying to get to and from school, I’ve asked Northern to take this into consideration and lay on extra carriages but also provide staff who can adequately ensure safety on the platforms.

"This is a real concern that was raised with me by the headteacher and it’s something I hope Northern will take very seriously.”

https://www.northwichguardian.co.uk...pils-after-overcrowding-at-greenbank-station/
 
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Confused52

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There used to be subsided bus services from St Nicholas High to Lostock Gralam, Knutsford and Mobberley and from Hartford C of E High to Lostock Gralam, now there aren't and almost everyone gets on the train but the train can't cope. This also isn't a new problem - it existed under the old franchise.

Northern do manage to put two 'Travel Safe Officers' at Greenbank in the afternoon who stop pupils getting too close to the edge of the platform and remove people from trains when they are so full the doors can't close. However, 2 extra carriages would be much better.



https://www.northwichguardian.co.uk...pils-after-overcrowding-at-greenbank-station/
So why haven't the heads organised commercial school buses?
 

pemma

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So why haven't the heads organised commercial school buses?

They have but local coach companies charge a small fortune for tickets (at adult rate) so they are only used by those who don't live close to a station as pupils can travel at child rates on trains.
 
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js1000

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No railway company is going to lay on extra carriages for a few kids.

The problem is very simple: get the local authority to subsidise the bus service.
 

matt_world2004

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No railway company is going to lay on extra carriages for a few kids.

The problem is very simple: get the local authority to subsidise the bus service.
Yes We could reallocate the considerable amount of taxpayers money used to subsidise Northern to fund that bus service.
 

krus_aragon

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With three large high schools and a number of primary and SEND schools all within walking distance of the station
Utterly tangential, but:
The term used to be Special Needs. Then it was changed to Special Educational Needs (SEN), and it remains thus in Wales. When did England feel the need to tag a 'D' on the end?
 

Smidster

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No railway company is going to lay on extra carriages for a few kids.

The problem is very simple: get the local authority to subsidise the bus service.

And where are you going to get that money from? Local Authorities funding has been cut to the bone in recent years so there is very unlikely to be the funding available.

And why shouldn't the Train Company have a responsibility here? In pretty much every other industry you respond to demand - Especially when that demand is consistent and predictable
 

northernchris

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Northern do manage to put two 'Travel Safe Officers' at Greenbank in the afternoon who stop pupils getting too close to the edge of the platform and remove people from trains when they are so full the doors can't close. However, 2 extra carriages would be much better.

I agree that 2 extra carriages would be better, but where would they come from? Given Northern's acute shortage of units it would mean taking 2 carriages off another service, are you aware of any services which could afford to lose these in the area?
 

Jack Hay

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From May 2019 there will be two trains an hour (each way) at Greenbank station, a near doubling of the train service, which may solve the overcrowding problem. At least it should for students traveling to Northwich, Knutsford, Hale or Altrincham, given that one of the trains is likely to be limited stop. It's still a problem in the meantime, I agree, and particularly acute given that the two trains an hour timetable should have started in December 2017.
 

Merseysider

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No railway company is going to lay on extra carriages for a few kids.
It isn’t ‘a few kids’. The overcrowding is dangerous.
js1000 said:
The problem is very simple: get the local authority to subsidise the bus service.
I’m trying very hard not to be too sarcastic. I’ll instead assume you are blissfully unaware and link to this instead.
 

johnnychips

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Utterly tangential, but:
The term used to be Special Needs. Then it was changed to Special Educational Needs (SEN), and it remains thus in Wales. When did England feel the need to tag a 'D' on the end?
Disabled. It is a bit superfluous as if you are disabled you probably have special needs.
 

philthetube

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Not sure why the train company has a responsibility and not the bus operators?

Easily solved, cancel the train, then the schools, council have to do something.
 

Starmill

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Not sure why the train company has a responsibility and not the bus operators?
Because the children (or rather their parents) have paid for train tickets, and not paid for bus tickets. This point has been made, several times.
 

swt_passenger

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Utterly tangential, but:
The term used to be Special Needs. Then it was changed to Special Educational Needs (SEN), and it remains thus in Wales. When did England feel the need to tag a 'D' on the end?
D is for disabilities. The transport rules are the same and combined in legislation which is apparently applicable in England and Wales:
Your child may be entitled to free transport if they can’t walk to school because of their special educational needs and disabilities (SEND) or mobility problem.
Any transport your council provides must be suitable to your child’s needs.
https://www.gov.uk/apply-school-transport-for-child-with-special-educational-needs-sen
 

krus_aragon

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D is for disabilities. The transport rules are the same and combined in legislation which is apparently applicable in England and Wales:

https://www.gov.uk/apply-school-transport-for-child-with-special-educational-needs-sen
Thanks. The transport provisions are indeed equivalent (to my knowledge).

To answer my own question, it appears England introduced the new acronym in 2014: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/send-code-of-practice-0-to-25 .

In Wales, the term ALN (additionl learning needs) was being used by then, but SEN was considered to be a distinct subset of ALN (alongside learning difficulties or disabilities). An overhaul of ALN is now in process in Wales, so that the term SEN will no longer be used within a year or so: https://beta.gov.wales/sites/defaul...ing-needs-aln-transformation-programme-v2.pdf
 

pemma

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I agree that 2 extra carriages would be better, but where would they come from? Given Northern's acute shortage of units it would mean taking 2 carriages off another service, are you aware of any services which could afford to lose these in the area?

The service had 4 carriages until Northern decided to make it 2 so that could run the half-hourly off-peak service to Buxton.
 

whhistle

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I hate the term "special" being used for someone who is disabled :/
Why not "extra" or "additional"? - two words which are more descriptive.
 

pemma

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No railway company is going to lay on extra carriages for a few kids.

The problem is very simple: get the local authority to subsidise the bus service.

It isn’t ‘a few kids’. The overcrowding is dangerous.

I’m trying very hard not to be too sarcastic. I’ll instead assume you are blissfully unaware and link to this instead.

Indeed we're talking about over 200 kids on a train with 120-130 seats which already has a fair few passengers on board when it arrives plus 20 or so adult passengers waiting to board. The service is also part of the same diagram as the c.07:00 Chester to Manchester which also needs more capacity.

Someone mentioned cancel the train - then the problem transfers to the service 60 minutes later which has college pupils and commuters who do early shifts, ending around 4pm, instead.
 

Eccles1983

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One easy fix - don't stop at greenbank.

Or withdraw the offer it does for schoolkids tickets it runs on that line.

Harsh, but will stop the "dangerous" overcrowding.
 

Deafdoggie

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We had a bus which overcrowded at school time, so we retimed it a few minutes earlier, some ran for it, others waited for the next, it just helped spread the demand though!
 

Meole

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Manchester to Cardiff gets massively overcrowded from Ludlow to Hereford in term time due to school kids attending a preference school, you cannot alter the set formation just for that, a local service is not a feasible option nor is an extra train, its just life.
 

pemma

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We had a bus which overcrowded at school time, so we retimed it a few minutes earlier, some ran for it, others waited for the next, it just helped spread the demand though!

Problem here is it's currently an hourly service, so the schools would likely tweak their starting and finishing times to avoid having large number of their pupils hanging around at a station for a long time. In fact both St Nicholas High and Knutsford Academy have already done that so their times tie in with the current train times.

I also don't think the solution you suggest would work everywhere. If a significant number of pupils jump on 20 seconds before the bus is due to leave the departure can be delayed while the driver issues/checks tickets.
 

pemma

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Manchester to Cardiff gets massively overcrowded from Ludlow to Hereford in term time due to school kids attending a preference school, you cannot alter the set formation just for that, a local service is not a feasible option nor is an extra train, its just life.

On a service of that distance no you can't but it doesn't mean that what you say can't be used as further justification for lengthening the Manchester to Cardiff trains, given overcrowding happens on a number of different services in a number of different places. It also doesn't mean an additional Shrewsbury-Hereford service can't be introduced, especially in the afternoon when the school pupils will likely be travelling before the official evening peak.
 
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LowLevel

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It's a problem in a few places. Newark to Lincoln is one. The schools/colleges withdrew the road transport for their pupils so they moved on to using the trains, which had no further capacity added to manage the matter. Consequently the 2 trains that arrive into Lincoln at around 8am are very busy, one formed of 2 cars and formed of a single car.
 

Kite159

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On some Fridays SWR changes the 14:47 Salisbury - Waterloo service to start at Sherborne to cover for the extra load when the boarding school finishes for the term and all the kids head home with luggage to stop the service before & after from Exeter getting extra busy with the luggage.

The 15:44 Yeovil - Waterloo service also suffers a bit with overcrowding from Salisbury with the school kids heading home from the various schools in Salisbury (along with the random Russian tourist) as that is the first service from Salisbury which calls at the villages
 

Confused52

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Is the root cause of this problem perhaps the 50% discount on the child season ticket price that the geniuses at Northern have offered at the same time as having rolling stock shortages? Effectively increasing demand from those with discretion over how their kids travel. The SEN kids will travel free and have no choice because their pass will dictate how they travel.
 

agbrs_Jack

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It isn’t ‘a few kids’. The overcrowding is dangerous.

I’m trying very hard not to be too sarcastic. I’ll instead assume you are blissfully unaware and link to this instead.

Congleton based here and our trains are also crowded, but evening is much worse as Northern removed our only additional peak service in May. (Should improve in May as well as our abysmal Sunday service but not holding my breath.)
Can confirm that Cheshire East Council are useless, they very rarely get involved in anything rail based.
 

Bletchleyite

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Is the root cause of this problem perhaps the 50% discount on the child season ticket price that the geniuses at Northern have offered at the same time as having rolling stock shortages? Effectively increasing demand from those with discretion over how their kids travel. The SEN kids will travel free and have no choice because their pass will dictate how they travel.

Eh? Child tickets are always 50% of the adult fare, seasons included.
 
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