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Why are trams not narrow gauge?

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willmow

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I frequently travel on Swiss mountain trains (1-metre gauge). They're wide, comfy and able to negotiate tight radii. Why is this gauge not used for trams?
 
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CatfordCat

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there are and have been quite a few metre gauge tram networks out there - (list on wikipedia here)

metre gauge wasn't really a thing in the UK, but there were a number of systems on 3 ft 6 gauge - Birmingham was the largest, but there were quite a few others.
 

Tim R-T-C

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I guess simply standardisation. Easier to get parts and stock if your tram system is the same as everyone elses.

Plus the ability to run onto heavy rail networks, which is finally happening in Rotherham now.
 

jopsuk

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Whilst I'd guess that ultimately narrow gauge does allow tighter turns, I'd have thought that spacing between axles in the bogie and the length of cars between bogie centres is much more of an influence on minimum corner radii. And I'd suspect that more than a few tramways at one time had some limited conveyance of freight wagons from the mainline, at least at their extremities.

From what I can find the rolling stock of the Rhätische Bahn and the Matterhorn Gotthard Bahn, which together make up the main metre gauge network, is ~2.65m wide, the same width as most tram stock in the UK at least (and a little narrow than mainline British stock, which is generally 2.7-2.8m wide)
 
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AndrewE

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Whilst I'd guess that ultimately narrow gauge does allow tighter turns, I'd have thought that spacing between axles in the bogie and the length of cars between bogie centres is much more of an influence on minimum corner radii. And I'd suspect that more than a few tramways at one time had some limited conveyance of freight wagons from the mainline, at least at their extremities.
I believe that is why Glasgow and Huddersfield had the strange gauge of just under 1435 mm, so that freight wagons could use the rails, but running with their flanges in the grooves.
 

CatfordCat

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I believe that is why Glasgow and Huddersfield had the strange gauge of just under 1435 mm, so that freight wagons could use the rails, but running with their flanges in the grooves.

yes - selection of pictures of Glasgow here
 

edwin_m

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Although a narrow gauge reduces the problems with wheel-rail interaction on tighter curves, on the sort of really tight curve where this makes much difference the greater overturning risk on narrow gauge may become an issue. The tightest curves on any tramway are far too tight to allow rolling contact with any sensible wheel conicity, so they just have to accept that one wheel is going to be sliding on the rail and there will be heavy rail wear in this location as well as heavy wheel wear if the tramway has a lot of tight curves. The effect of gauge on this situation is probably marginal.

Although it obviously wasn't a concern when the tramways were built, a 100% low floor tram is more difficult on narrow gauge because the wheels are under the seats and the aisle needs to pass between them.
 

John Webb

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........Although it obviously wasn't a concern when the tramways were built, a 100% low floor tram is more difficult on narrow gauge because the wheels are under the seats and the aisle needs to pass between them.
Have any trams ever been built with independent wheels each side to allow low floors more easily by removing the axles?
 

AndrewE

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... The tightest curves on any tramway are far too tight to allow rolling contact with any sensible wheel conicity, so they just have to accept that one wheel is going to be sliding on the rail and there will be heavy rail wear in this location as well as heavy wheel wear if the tramway has a lot of tight curves.
I have read that some systems ran water along the grooves of tram rails in some locations to lubricate them, presumably just 1 side, to ease the noise - & presumably wear too.
 

theageofthetra

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Could it also be that the earliest tram cars were at the infancy of electric traction and it was easier to fit an axle hung motor on a standard gauge axle with the technology of the time?
 

edwin_m

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Have any trams ever been built with independent wheels each side to allow low floors more easily by removing the axles?
Yes, many of the early low floor tram designs had independent wheels and some still do. Even so the wheel, motor and associated suspension gubbins takes up quite a bit of room so has to be boxed in under seats. Independent wheels also lose the self-centering effect which isn't relevant to cornering on tight curves but is at higher speeds on larger radii.
 

edwin_m

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Could it also be that the earliest tram cars were at the infancy of electric traction and it was easier to fit an axle hung motor on a standard gauge axle with the technology of the time?
That may be so, although Volk's railway wasn't standard gauge! I would guess it's largely a question of knowing standard gauge works and is about right for the size of vehicle needed, so there's no good reason to do anything different. But in practice high-capacity tramways have been built at a range of gauges between metre and slightly wider than standard.
 

WatcherZero

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Nowadays what they tend to do in 100% low floor trams is have the majority of the bogie under the floor purely consisting of a structural U frame, all the gubbins are on the extreme edges surrounding the wheels. So floor height is actually below the height of the bogie edges and your walking through the centre of the bogie.

This Russian bogie is a good example.

https://www.metro-report.com/uploads/pics/tn_uvz-r1-tram-bogie-impression.jpg

Or this CAD model.

https://d2t1xqejof9utc.cloudfront.net/screenshots/pics/aed489ab46e2a00320cfb8b68da5ec9b/large.JPG
 
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Bedpan

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Trams on the Seaton Tramway run on 2ft 9in gauge track, but I suppose that they are not really referring to what the OP was referring to as they are just a scaled down version of standard gauge.
 

AndrewE

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Trams on the Seaton Tramway run on 2ft 9in gauge track, but I suppose that they are not really referring to what the OP was referring to as they are just a scaled down version of standard gauge.
...which may be why they are second in the list for extant narrow-gauge tramways in the link in post #2.
 

Bedpan

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I thought that post 2 inferred that the list (which I didn't look at) was a list of Metre Gauge tramways and Seaton is 838mm!
 

randyrippley

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Could it also be that the earliest tram cars were at the infancy of electric traction and it was easier to fit an axle hung motor on a standard gauge axle with the technology of the time?
The Isle of Man had no problems fitting motors on their narrow gauge trucks
 

AndrewE

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I thought that post 2 inferred that the list (which I didn't look at) was a list of Metre Gauge tramways and Seaton is 838mm!
It shows about 20 less-than-metre gauge tramways (mostly historical,) maybe 170 metre gauge (lots abandoned or converted to standard gauge) and 170 standard gauge (also lots abandoned) and about 130 broader.
If you don't look at the links people give us you will miss out on lots of interesting snippets - as well as other sources of info.
 
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Fireless

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There have been and, outside of the UK, still are plenty of examples of narrow gauge tram systems with metre gauge being quite popular.

The german Rhein-Neckar network racks up about a total 300 km of metre gauge spanning three cities and their surroundings.
 

AndrewE

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There have been and, outside of the UK, still are plenty of examples of narrow gauge tram systems with metre gauge being quite popular.
as the link in post 2 shows us..
The german Rhein-Neckar network racks up about a total 300 km of metre gauge spanning three cities and their surroundings.
Now that isn't immediately obvious from scanning the list. Thanks. From a quick look at the network map it looks as though they join up too...
 

Taunton

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Narrow gauge is not necessarily connected with the vehicle overall size, of course - South African 3'6" stock is larger than UK mainline. But the ride standard on narrow gauge is notably more swaying that standard gauge - the electric suburban lines in Brisbane and Perth, Australia, demonstrate this.

Standard gauge means what it says. Manufacturers will not have test tracks for oddball gauges, likewise it works against purchasing secondhand stock. The BART system in San Francisco thought they were clever going for a non-standard wide 5'6" gauge, but now find they cannot readily hire standard US track maintenance plant from the normal national contractors, and have to keep their own expensive and underused works fleet.
 

krus_aragon

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did the Railway Regulation (Gauge) Act 1846 apply to trams?
If it did, it made it quite easy to use another gauge instead, as you just needed to say so in the enabling act:

"WHEREAS it is expedient to define the Gauge on which Railways shall be constructed: Be it enacted by the Queen's most Excellent Majesty That after the passing of this Act it shall not be lawful to construct any Railway for the Conveyance of Passengers on any Gauge other than Four Feet Eight Inches and Half an Inch in Great Britain, and Five Feet Three Inches in Ireland
...
And be it enacted, That nothing herein-before contained shail apply to any Railway constructed or to be constructed under the Provisions of any present or future Act containing any special Enactment defining the Gauge or Gauges of such Railway, ..."
 
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pieguyrob

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Looking in one of the published railway magazines, I do believe a former Blackpool transport Brush railcar is trialing individual wheel motor technology at I do believe the churnet valley railway. Also in terms of the guage of tramways, surely it is economies of scale. If the national network runs at 4 foot 8 and 1/2 inch. It then makes sense to make everything else at that garage to lower manufacturing costs, because, all the axles are the same width. Also there is no break of guage like you had in days gone by with Brunel's broad gauge. Or you have in modern Australia going from one coast to the other. (Irish gauge 5'3", standard 4'8 1/2", and narrow gauge 3").
 

WatcherZero

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I cant remember if it was narrow or standard gauge but remember the original Paris tramway had an issue with the double deckers constantly toppling over on corners due to balance issues.
 

Ken H

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Kust Tram, Antwerp and Ghent trams are metre while Brussels are standard. The first 3 are operated by De Lijn, the Flemish public transport operator.
KustTram was once part of an extensive tramway network across Belgium run by NMVB/SCNV, all metre gauge. Think the rest of the network is now gone.
 

edwin_m

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Kust Tram, Antwerp and Ghent trams are metre while Brussels are standard. The first 3 are operated by De Lijn, the Flemish public transport operator.
KustTram was once part of an extensive tramway network across Belgium run by NMVB/SCNV, all metre gauge. Think the rest of the network is now gone.
If I recall correctly the other remnants of the Vicinal are a small network in Charleroi (part of which was put underground during the pre-metro craze of the 70s) and a short route mainly for tourists. Both of these are also metre gauge.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Looking in one of the published railway magazines, I do believe a former Blackpool transport Brush railcar is trialing individual wheel motor technology at I do believe the churnet valley railway. Also in terms of the guage of tramways, surely it is economies of scale. If the national network runs at 4 foot 8 and 1/2 inch. It then makes sense to make everything else at that garage to lower manufacturing costs, because, all the axles are the same width. Also there is no break of gauge like you had in days gone by with Brunel's broad gauge. Or you have in modern Australia going from one coast to the other. (Irish gauge 5'3", standard 4'8 1/2", and narrow gauge 3").

Except that nowadays it is perfectly possible to go coast to coast without any break of gauge, including via Victoria. Indeed work is on-going to provide more standard gauge tracks in Victoria to improve railfreight connectivity for both intra- and inter-state hauls. Note that in an Australian context 5'3" gauge is called Victorian gauge. To come back on topic I would point out that Melbourne's trams, running on the largest single network in the world, use 4'8" gauge so in a purely local context are narrow gauge!
 

DavidGrain

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In the Baltic states, I have been to both Tallinn Estonia and Riga Latvia. Although both countries have a various times been under the control of Russia or the Soviet Union, I was interested in the fact that Tallinn trams ran on 3ft 6ins gauge but the Riga trams, no surprisingly ran on Russian gauge of 5 ft.
 
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