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Class 710 LO

Aictos

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172's would just be a conversion for the crew that currently sign them, no biggie so expect to see them in service on those routes currently served by 172's pretty much as soon as they arrive, assuming the overhauls have been done.

However do all depots sign 172s?
 
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silverfoxcc

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Haven't read all this thread, but went past OOC on Monday and there was a very large anount of 710 lined up
Does anyone know how many and which ones?
 

silverfoxcc

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Not great on the unit refs, a length of emus are all the same to me!! Yep i would say it is the new Crossrail ones.
but the question on how many etc remains
 

samuelmorris

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Not great on the unit refs, a length of emus are all the same to me!! Yep i would say it is the new Crossrail ones.
but the question on how many etc remains
Crossrail ones are purple, LO ones are orange, that's fairly straightforward :D

Have a look at the 'Class 345' thread and ask there, I follow that thread but haven't seen a list of which ones have officially been delivered.
 
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Wouldn't that have been 345s for Crossrail at old oak rather than the 710s?
I have seen a 710 in the old oak area before in one of the various sidings there. That was about 6 months ago or more I guess. Not in the main xrail sidings though, but visible from the Overground tracks anyway.
 

ijmad

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TfL have told the GOBLIN users group that the lease on the remaining 172s has been extended to be a gradual transfer from January to March 2019:
http://barking-gospeloak.org.uk/documents/20181119_stock_crisis_meeting.pdf

The report also gives some detail about TfL's ongoing frustrations with Bombardier over the situation, as well as ruling out using other classes of trains on the GOBLIN even temporarily, as it's not practical from a driver training or stabling POV.

Network Rail have also blocked them from changing the timetable from 15 minute to 20 minute service if they lose any more trains.
 

Milo T.K

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I hear a rumour a new train is supposed to enter service in Monday and it may be a 710 though I'm not sure
 

ijmad

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I hear a rumour a new train is supposed to enter service in Monday and it may be a 710 though I'm not sure

Goblin users group latest on Twitter is that as far as they're aware, still no train has achieved 2000 trouble free miles and been handed over to TFL/LO.
 

332 > 444

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If even the 755s manage to get in service before these, heads should roll. As it stands the 717s will come into service beforehand.

TfL should've bit the bullet time ago and got a stop gap measure with the suitable specs.
 

87015

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If even the 755s manage to get in service before these, heads should roll. As it stands the 717s will come into service beforehand.

TfL should've bit the bullet time ago and got a stop gap measure with the suitable specs.
What possible stop gap? The addiitonal 387s for exactly that were gazumped by FGW/GWR a long time ago.
 

AlexNL

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Surely plenty of EMUs should be available soon... 365s, 313s after leaving GN, and ex-HC 360s when the 345s start working to Heathrow?
 

absolutelymilk

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Surely plenty of EMUs should be available soon... 365s, 313s after leaving GN, and ex-HC 360s when the 345s start working to Heathrow?
Soon, but probably not that much sooner than the 710s, meaning the driver time spent learning them will not be worth it.
 

jeromeroberts

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But for DOO operation?
London Overground still has at least 50 'redeployed guards' currently doing station roles at present maybe if the price was right they could assist for 6 months or so on a 313,315,319 or 365 or whatever traction is available.
 

hwl

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Surely plenty of EMUs should be available soon... 365s, 313s after leaving GN, and ex-HC 360s when the 345s start working to Heathrow?

And where are the DOO cameras on the stock you listed located?
 

MML

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I'm intrigued about the longitudinal versus transverse seating conundrum.

I travel regularly on the MML which has 700 stock. The 2+2 ironing board seating is very good in that it is upright and at the correct height giving good posture. The only downside being it has insufficient padding for a 2 hour journey to the South Coast and the foot level coving protrudes into the foot space near the window. To be honest, it is perfectly adequate for a 20-30 minute commute from places like Luton and St Albans to London. Single or longitudinal seating is only provided around the PRM toilet to provide wheelchair access.
When crush loaded, across the cross-section you can have 2+2 seated, 1 standing and adequate room for 1 person to squeeze past.

Now with longitudinal seating, you can have 1+1 seated but the feet of the people who are seated still have to go somewhere. So protrude into the central open space. The wide open space in the middle of the carriage is obviously available for standing passengers hanging onto grab rails or slings, but I can't see how this actually provides more space than the 2+2 seated plus 2 standing option given legs, arms and bags have to go somewhere.

I'd much prefer 2+2 airline seats given that I'd have a better view out of the window (not such an issue on LU admittedly) and wouldn't be subjected to looking at someone's backside or armpit for most of the journey. The only possible downside would perhaps be the person in the aisle seat having to provide egress to the person at the window seat, which may mean they are slowing disembarkation.
However, on the MML this does not seem to negatively impact boarding times, as most regular commuters exit their seat well in advance of arriving at their destination station.

Is it simply a case that longitudinal seating is cheaper to provide than transverse seating, as there is less physical product to source ?
 
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Malcolmffc

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What is the equivalent of crayonista for the “just run stock class x on line y” types? (ignoring stock clearance, route knowledge, stock availability, DOO issues etc...)
 

Aictos

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London Overground still has at least 50 'redeployed guards' currently doing station roles at present maybe if the price was right they could assist for 6 months or so on a 313,315,319 or 365 or whatever traction is available.

Won't happen for reasons why I will answer in the next post.

Surely they've all lost their guard competency now?

Safety Critical roles have to be regularly assessed and if they've gone more then 6 months without being assessed then they lose that specific competency.

As a example, lets take a driver if they don't drive over a specific route for more then 6 months then they lose that route knowledge and have to undergo route knowledge training again for that route no matter what the route.

Another example is with dispatchers, if they haven't dispatched for more then 6 months they are classed as unfit to dispatch and need to be reassessed to regain their competency to dispatch.

So no I can't see any former LO guards being used in their former roles even if only temporary nor can I see any surplus EMU rolling stock being used on a temporary basis until the full Class 710 fleet is in full service.
 

Ethano92

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I'm intrigued about the longitudinal versus transverse seating conundrum.

I travel regularly on the MML which has 700 stock. The 2+2 ironing board seating is very good in that it is upright and at the correct height giving good posture. The only downside being it has insufficient padding for a 2 hour journey to the South Coast and the foot level coving protrudes into the foot space near the window. To be honest, it is perfectly adequate for a 20-30 minute commute from places like Luton and St Albans to London. Single or longitudinal seating is only provided around the PRM toilet to provide wheelchair access.
When crush loaded, across the cross-section you can have 2+2 seated, 1 standing and adequate room for 1 person to squeeze past.

Now with longitudinal seating, you can have 1+1 seated but the feet of the people who are seated still have to go somewhere. So protrude into the central open space. The wide open space in the middle of the carriage is obviously available for standing passengers hanging onto grab rails or slings, but I can't see how this actually provides more space than the 2+2 seated plus 2 standing option given legs, arms and bags have to go somewhere.

I'd much prefer 2+2 airline seats given that I'd have a better view out of the window (not such an issue on LU admittedly) and wouldn't be subjected to looking at someone's backside or armpit for most of the journey. The only possible downside would perhaps be the person in the aisle seat having to provide egress to the person at the window seat, which may mean they are slowing disembarkation.
However, on the MML this does not seem to negatively impact boarding times, as most regular commuters exit their seat well in advance of arriving at their destination station.

Is it simply a case that longitudinal seating is cheaper to provide than transverse seating, as there is less physical product to source ?

I think it's just a matter of things being TFLified. In that take crossrail for example. We can argue the lack of toilets, luggage racks, seating layout, no bins etc is fine for the length of journey but we all know if it wasn't operated through TFL the 345s would have all those things and be a copy of the 700s. A positive to things being TFLified is that they understand it's well and good to have standing space but you need to provide plenty of grab poles which they do on almost all of their stock.

I personally don't mind longitudinal seating, at least there's almost always armrests to segregate your space (at least in London, obviously not in NY etc). It may very well be that longitudinal seating is cheaper to provide but either way, it certainly does maximise the sense of space. Walking through a 345s longitudinal only carriages and it almost doesn't feel like a UK train, it feels too wide, and as spacious as the 700s are, you won't get that with transverse in my opinion.

I wouldn't mind doing the route from say southbury to Liverpool Street longitudinal IF the seats were padded which they simply aren't. On fainsa seating, you can feel a small amount of padding but still acknowledge there simply isn't enough for long journeys, at least you get a proper backrest, but on these TFL aventura seats, there simply is none it feels like. I'd happily sit from Ealing Broadway to upminster on the s stock because their seats are well padded. Still it's completely objective as some really like the 345s seats.
 

jellybaby

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We can argue the lack of toilets, luggage racks, seating layout, no bins etc is fine for the length of journey but we all know if it wasn't operated through TFL the 345s would have all those things and be a copy of the 700s.

If that were true the 717s would have toilets.
 

AlexNL

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And where are the DOO cameras on the stock you listed located?
Ah, the 172s have DOO cameras while the rest is dispatched using platform-based equipment? I didn't know that.
 

samuelmorris

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I think it's just a matter of things being TFLified. In that take crossrail for example. We can argue the lack of toilets, luggage racks, seating layout, no bins etc is fine for the length of journey but we all know if it wasn't operated through TFL the 345s would have all those things and be a copy of the 700s. A positive to things being TFLified is that they understand it's well and good to have standing space but you need to provide plenty of grab poles which they do on almost all of their stock.

I personally don't mind longitudinal seating, at least there's almost always armrests to segregate your space (at least in London, obviously not in NY etc). It may very well be that longitudinal seating is cheaper to provide but either way, it certainly does maximise the sense of space. Walking through a 345s longitudinal only carriages and it almost doesn't feel like a UK train, it feels too wide, and as spacious as the 700s are, you won't get that with transverse in my opinion.

I wouldn't mind doing the route from say southbury to Liverpool Street longitudinal IF the seats were padded which they simply aren't. On fainsa seating, you can feel a small amount of padding but still acknowledge there simply isn't enough for long journeys, at least you get a proper backrest, but on these TFL aventura seats, there simply is none it feels like. I'd happily sit from Ealing Broadway to upminster on the s stock because their seats are well padded. Still it's completely objective as some really like the 345s seats.
The seats on 345s, longitudinal or transverse (though I think the longitudinals are slightly worse in this regard) are essentially plastic school chairs. The S stock were still being built until fairly recently, are Underground trains exempt from the regulation that now prohibits padding on mainline stock?
Otherwise the part-longitudinal approach makes sense - yes, you fit fewer people across the train with it (2 seated and 2 standing for 4 versus 2+2 seated and 1 standing for 5 otherwise), but standing passengers can be much closer together front-to-back (and longitudinal seat pitch is also a lot smaller than transverse) so even if it's only 4 abreast you'll carry more passengers in the same area.
 

Chris125

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For services with frequent stops and short journeys it makes sense to have more standing room - the extra space makes it easier for people to get off a busy train and more inclined to move down the carriage to make way for others.
 

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