swt_passenger
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 7 Apr 2010
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That’s what I’d have thought. Reports of its sudden demise are equally likely to be fact free.Would it not be easier just to run them on the third rail ?
That’s what I’d have thought. Reports of its sudden demise are equally likely to be fact free.Would it not be easier just to run them on the third rail ?
Is it? Any real evidence for that?Isn't the Island Line electrical system falling apart?
That’s what I’d have thought. Reports of its sudden demise are equally likely to be fact free.
Isn't the Island Line electrical system falling apart?
Would it not be easier just to run them on the third rail ?
That’s what I’d have thought. Reports of its sudden demise are equally likely to be fact free.
I've heard there's a volt-drop problem in places, but that's just loop resistance which might be addressed to an extent by some further welding up of both power and running rails into longer sections. Also a modern solid-state traction system on board the trains might be more tolerant of voltage variability if so designed. Add a SMALL battery on each train and there would be temporary storage to collect and re-use braking energy without re-equipping substations, boosting acceleration anywhere volt drop is a problem, trickle charging elsewhere when coasting and there is spare supply capacity available. Substation equipment is no doubt getting on but it's small scale stuff on the island compared to the mainland system, 'small industry' size rather than 'super factory' needing a grid connection, and could be renewed fairy economically if necessary. Charging more continuously from a retained third rail would require a smaller peak load than periodic full fast recharging at termini. On board batteries could allow short gaps in the power rail where expedient, along the pier and through Ryde tunnels for example.
Me neither, all that talk of hydrogen fuel cell technologies etc replacing electrification doesn’t seem any closer to actual mainstream service than when Alistair Darling used to mention it whilst SOS for transport .That's very interesting. I've never understood the obsession with getting rid of the third rail here.
nooo. Confirmation on The the new(ish) 230s being battery powered has been made, I don't know why that is for discussion in a slightly irrelevant subject.Er... that’s what most of this thread has been about recently. Battery power on 230s is nothing but speculation.
I meant battery power for the Island Line itself is pure speculation. People are trying to push battery power on an electrified railway with no justification. Just like a little while ago they were trying to recommend diesel 230s for Romford to Upminster.nooo. Confirmation on The the new(ish) 230s being battery powered has been made, I don't know why that is for discussion in a slightly irrelevant subject.
Ok well. I wouldn't think it would be too hard since all you would need is like a battery charging station if you know what I meanI meant battery power for the Island Line itself is pure speculation. People are trying to push battery power on an electrified railway with no justification. Just like a little while ago they were trying to recommend diesel 230s for Romford to Upminster.
It would have to be more powerful than the electrification that’s already there.Ok well. I wouldn't think it would be too hard since all you would need is like a battery charging station if you know what I mean
I wonder what work, if any, would be needed to convert the D-stock trains from 4th rail operation to 3rd rail operation?
Fit axle end mounted current return brushes, and wiring to suit. Probably all to be done on the bogies. They have already worked on the 630V dc on the Wimbledon branch, with return via the 0V fourth rail. Potentially the easiest modification you could make, compared to battery or diesel.I wonder what work, if any, would be needed to convert the D-stock trains from 4th rail operation to 3rd rail operation?
No real evidence for that is there, other than speculative posts here? If it was ‘knackered’ how do the trains run now?But isn't the electrification knackered?
But isn't the electrification knackered?
technically not difficult,given the power drops in the line.It would have to be more powerful than the electrification that’s already there.
I remember over 15 years ago a member of the public at Smallbrook Junction claiming the substation near Sandown needed replacement. If the infrastructure is knackered it's been knackered for a while.
I meant battery power for the Island Line itself is pure speculation. People are trying to push battery power on an electrified railway with no justification. Just like a little while ago they were trying to recommend diesel 230s for Romford to Upminster.
Couldn't that be more expensive though, in that you're maintaining both a third-rail, and an extra battery system in the train?A 230 with a battery could run on the 3rd rail and use the battery to boost power when there is a voltage drop and use it for faster acceleration / speeds deferring any issue with the current system. It is not to replace what is there, just to defer costs.
For the low usage, it would surely make economic sense to have bits of third rail at some stations to recharge a battery rather than keep third rail throughout which, remember, has a cost to maintain - electrification is not 'free' and any maintenance cost is going to be higher on the IoW because you can't benefit from economy of scale like you can with a third rail network on the mainland i.e. continuous use of heavy plant and large teams of workers that can be used efficiently across many routes.
The battery capacity which was being talked about suggested a round trip would be possible on a single charge - that would logically mean keeping some charging capability at Shanklin and Ryde St Johns - whether it needs to be a third rail is an interesting question as Vivarail might have some other options in mind.
I'm not up on the ins and outs of battery trains. What happens if one gets stuck between stations for a couple of hours (tree needs removing from the line etc.). If the heating's blasting away, doesn't that drain the battery? Are these 230s capable of pushing/dragging one another back to the charging point in this case? Or will a diesel 'Thunderbird' be needed?
that would make sense.Depends how heating is done - our local electric buses actually have diesel-fired Webasto heaters!
You get a variety of approaches, in Switzerland the funiculars often have storage heaters which are only powered when on the juice to charge. That approach would likely work too.
The battery capacity which was being talked about suggested a round trip would be possible on a single charge - that would logically mean keeping some charging capability at Shanklin and Ryde St Johns - whether it needs to be a third rail is an interesting question as Vivarail might have some other options in mind.
Hypothetically, if the Island Line is expanded in the future, what current obstacles would the railway have to overcome