Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[bramling]

The longer the 365s last as is, the less chance of them being retrospectively upgraded for such a big project that will a) be expensive b) may not work! They never got air conditioning and STILL don't even have CCTV despite the recent PIS upgrade. Some are getting Wi-Fi but this is running very late too.

The 365s can probably be cascaded elsewhere for others to enjoy them. Ideally getting refurbished to return to their original layout (we can dream!).

I am no fan of the 387s. They seem ill fitted for GN, having 2+2 seating (nice) but having no room (not nice). If GTR could replace the 387s and 365s in one go with more 700s, but create a sub-fleet with a different interior (and GN branding rather than TL) then that might work. But I am not holding out much hope.

One advantage the 365s have is there are spare units, allowing cover for any fleet upgrade programme. I can’t see the 387s going for the now, as things stand there is a need to detach and attach for the Kings Lynn run, and in order to flex lengths accordingly that means 4-car units for the immediate future at least. If they were going to buy more trains, a few extra cars to lengthen the 8-car 700s would be the most worthwhile.

 

[neilm]

Any one know the sudden increase in 8 car trains on the BML? There seems to be some ill thought out ones. For example the 7:59 from BTN, which is the first TL train for 40 minutes, which means by the time it is at Gatwick it is leaving people behind. The 17:21 and 17:51 from London Bridge to Gatwick, these 2 trains are peaks at London Bridge, but being 8 coaches means they are also leaving people behind.

 

[JonathanH]

Any one know the sudden increase in 8 car trains on the BML? There seems to be some ill thought out ones. For example the 7:59 from BTN, which is the first TL train for 40 minutes, which means by the time it is at Gatwick it is leaving people behind. The 17:21 and 17:51 from London Bridge to Gatwick, these 2 trains are peaks at London Bridge, but being 8 coaches means they are also leaving people behind.

There isn't a sudden increase - they were always there - around six diagrams - linked to the Bedford Carriage Sidings problem, the need to get 8-car units to and from Three Bridges depot - number of available 8 / 12 car units - they just end up on awkward services in one or other of the peaks.

 

[Fred26]

Any one know the sudden increase in 8 car trains on the BML? There seems to be some ill thought out ones. For example the 7:59 from BTN, which is the first TL train for 40 minutes, which means by the time it is at Gatwick it is leaving people behind. The 17:21 and 17:51 from London Bridge to Gatwick, these 2 trains are peaks at London Bridge, but being 8 coaches means they are also leaving people behind.

There isn't a sudden increase - they were always there - around six diagrams - linked to the Bedford Carriage Sidings problem, the need to get 8-car units to and from Three Bridges depot - number of available 8 / 12 car units - they just end up on awkward services in one or other of the peaks.

There is actually at least one 8 vice 12 diagram today due to faults. Where that diagram goes though, I don't know.

 

[JonathanH]

Booked 8-car services in the peaks (other than where you would expect to find them - eg Rainham, Sutton Loop, Sevenoaks, Orpington, GN non-core services) are I think the following from diagrams posted online - some of the Rainham services start at Bedford as, in order to use Bedford Carriage Sidings effectively, the units have to work Rainham or Sutton Loop services.

Southbound
0443 Bedford to Brighton (0549 St Pancras)
0515 Bedford to Brighton (0619 St Pancras)
0548 Bedford to Brighton (0649 St Pancras)
0634 Bedford to East Grinstead (0724 St Pancras)
0852 Bedford to Three Bridges (0939 St Pancras)
1535 Bedford to Gatwick Airport (1651 London Bridge)
1602 Bedford to Gatwick Airport (1721 London Bridge)
1635 Bedford to Gatwick Airport (1751 London Bridge)
1746 Bedford to Brighton (1905 London Bridge)

Northbound
0622 Brighton to Bedford (0723 London Bridge)
0759 Brighton to Bedford (0904 London Bridge)
0828 Brighton to Bedford (0934 London Bridge)
0845 East Grinstead to Bedford (0940 London Bridge)
1533 Gatwick Airport to Bedford (1636 St Pancras)
1603 Gatwick Airport to Bedford (1706 St Pancras)
1803 Gatwick Airport to Bedford (1906 St Pancras)
1833 Gatwick Airport to Bedford (1936 St Pancras)

Seems fairly obvious how they have planned this.

 

[JonathanH]

Looking at Tiger for St Pancras at the moment, looks like 9J31 1154 Peterborough to Horsham and 9R27 1235 Bedford to Gatwick Airport both short formed 8 vs 12 today.

 

[bramling]

Not wonderful on the GN side again today. Several cancellations or delays with skip stopping used to catch up.

No doubt it’s all down to Network Rail and nothing to do with GTR or the Thameslink Programme as usual.

So it’s still not working well.

 

[neilm]

There isn't a sudden increase - they were always there - around six diagrams - linked to the Bedford Carriage Sidings problem, the need to get 8-car units to and from Three Bridges depot - number of available 8 / 12 car units - they just end up on awkward services in one or other of the peaks.

I see, but yes it seems they are now on much worse trains than they were before.

Booked 8-car services in the peaks (other than where you would expect to find them - eg Rainham, Sutton Loop, Sevenoaks, Orpington, GN non-core services) are I think the following from diagrams posted online - some of the Rainham services start at Bedford as, in order to use Bedford Carriage Sidings effectively, the units have to work Rainham or Sutton Loop services.

Southbound
0443 Bedford to Brighton (0549 St Pancras)
0515 Bedford to Brighton (0619 St Pancras)
0548 Bedford to Brighton (0649 St Pancras)
0634 Bedford to East Grinstead (0724 St Pancras)
0852 Bedford to Three Bridges (0939 St Pancras)
1535 Bedford to Gatwick Airport (1651 London Bridge)
1602 Bedford to Gatwick Airport (1721 London Bridge)
1635 Bedford to Gatwick Airport (1751 London Bridge)
1746 Bedford to Brighton (1905 London Bridge)

Northbound
0622 Brighton to Bedford (0723 London Bridge)
0759 Brighton to Bedford (0904 London Bridge)
0828 Brighton to Bedford (0934 London Bridge)
0845 East Grinstead to Bedford (0940 London Bridge)
1533 Gatwick Airport to Bedford (1636 St Pancras)
1603 Gatwick Airport to Bedford (1706 St Pancras)
1803 Gatwick Airport to Bedford (1906 St Pancras)
1833 Gatwick Airport to Bedford (1936 St Pancras)

Seems fairly obvious how they have planned this.

Thank you, do you know if this will change in May? Its bit disapointing that key BML trains in the peak are 8 cars. I know there is a reason why but still...

 

[jon0844]

Not wonderful on the GN side again today. Several cancellations or delays with skip stopping used to catch up.

No doubt it’s all down to Network Rail and nothing to do with GTR or the Thameslink Programme as usual.

So it’s still not working well.

Two early cancellations/alterations this morning due to someone puking up on the train last night, forcing it to run empty to King's Cross (nobody to clean it at Cambridge) and then 20+ minutes late because of the cleaning, meaning it skipped stops to catch up.

 

[ijmad]

5 services cancelled through Horsham today, 3 of those also affecting Peterborough (the other two to Bedford).
A few other sporadic cancellations on the BML, a couple on the Wimbledon loop, and one on the Chatham Main Line to Rainham.

PPM for today is 76-16-8 which is a slight improvement on Mon/Tue.

But, still issues it would appear with Peterborough services.

Let's see how the evening peak does.

 

[MML]

Delays this afternoon on Brighton to Bedford services due to lack of drivers. A number of services skip stopping to get back on schedule. Just as well I wasn't going to Harpenden or Harlington.
So what's happened ?

 

[Failed Unit]

Delays this afternoon on Brighton to Bedford services due to lack of drivers. A number of services skip stopping to get back on schedule. Just as well I wasn't going to Harpenden or Harlington.
So what's happened ?

Not sure if it all related but multiple issues tonight. Great Northern doing badly because of a signal fault couple with a timetable that is impossible to recover from even a 5 minute delay. Along with various incidents between Gatwick and Haywards Heath. Again not helped that it is nearly impossible to recover delays.

 

[DaveN]

So for Flitwick, there were two new/restored fast peak trains in the new Dec timetable, the 06:43 ( 8 car) in the morning and the 18:46 at Farringdon in the evening.
Performancewise, the morning one has been fine. The evening one was fine on Monday, but for Tuesday to Thursday was 14 minutes late at Flitwick and managed the full 15 minutes late on Friday.

 

[Old School]

GN side poor this morning. Cancellations due to Driver shortage, late running & stop skipping.

 

[MML]

I was surprised the weekend timetable on the MML is also so depleted. 30 minute interval service to London from anywhere north of Harpenden. On a Sunday then perhaps, but I'm sure it used to be a more frequent service on a Saturday.
2 x hourly Bedford to Brighton, plus 4 x hourly St Albans to Sutton and that's it. I would have expected a Luton to Gatwick Airport to provide a 4 trains per hour from Luton Airport.

Presumably they've worked the drivers so hard during the week, they cut right back at weekends.
The weekend timetable isn't stimulating off-peak travel at all. And if a train fails, then there is a huge gap in services.

I suppose the only positive is the trains are longer. I used to despair at the use of a 4-car 319 departing Brighton on a late Sunday afternoon. It was crush loaded by Haywards Heath.

 

[DaveN]

but I'm sure it used to be a more frequent service on a Saturday.

You are remembering correctly. For years there have been 4tph from Bedford to south of the river on Saturday. There's also nominally been 4tph on Sunday but with that cut down to 2tph if the core was closed. From 2017 until May 2018 on Sundays there would nearly always be 2tph "because of engineering work" somewhere. On Saturdays they'd still be 4tph even if only to City Thameslink. Since May 2018 it is 2tph for both Saturday and Sunday.

From https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/timetables, Winter Timetable FAQ

"Our current simplified weekend timetable means engineering work alterations can be overlaid in a shorter than usual timeframe. There is every intention of returning to normal industry agreed timescales and both planning teams in Thameslink Railway and Network Rail continue to work to achieve this as quickly as possible."

Yep, they are blaming the weekend timetable shortage on Network Rail...

 

[gingerheid]

So in terms of core > ECML, we've seen the first week of attempt three at running still not all of the May timetable.

If we use the number of trains from Biggleswade to Littlehaven (if disrupted this service tends to skip one of those stops) and from Cambridge to Brighton (if disrupted this service tends to start somewhere after Cambridge or not make it as far as Brighton) as a metric for an approximation of the number of trains that run to plan:

About 15% of trains are cancelled to some extent. Of the trains that do run the Cambridge ones are delayed by an average of 8m, and the Peterborough ones by an average of 4m.

Ouch

 

[bramling]

So in terms of core > ECML, we've seen the first week of attempt three at running still not all of the May timetable.

If we use the number of trains from Biggleswade to Littlehaven (if disrupted this service tends to skip one of those stops) and from Cambridge to Brighton (if disrupted this service tends to start somewhere after Cambridge or not make it as far as Brighton) as a metric for an approximation of the number of trains that run to plan:

About 15% of trains are cancelled to some extent. Of the trains that do run the Cambridge ones are delayed by an average of 8m, and the Peterborough ones by an average of 4m.

Ouch

Yes not a wonderful week by any measure.

Whilst the number of missing services has reduced, and it has - at times - been possible to look up a random departure board and see everything largely on or near right time, this is still the exception not the norm. Reality is turning up for a given service is still a lottery as to what will happen, and if one is unlucky this can result in a 5-minute journey taking over an hour longer than it should, not to mention experiences like having to wait unexpectedly on a cold platform.

On the GN side we’re seeing people choosing to take the stopping KX/Cambridge service as it’s generally more predictable and reliable (wait til it goes through the core when that will change dramatically!), as well as people choosing the 365 services where they can even if it means sitting on the train for half an hour before departure and ignoring Thameslink services from St Pancras. Likewise we’ve seen extra stops added to the evening 387 services because people don’t like having to rely on the Thameslink offering. None of this is good for the user, and ultimately is going to need revisiting.

The one positive is that generally the extra capacity is proving welcome - it’s such a shame this wasn’t provided in a less destructive way.

 

[bspahh]

Let’s hope a 365 makes it to Kings Lynn with HM on board. Must’ve been pretty embarrassing for GTR to have to admit that the Queen said she preferred the old trains

She went in a 387. https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/...ak-by-travelling-to-sandringham-a4022976.html

 

[bramling]

She went in a 387. https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/...ak-by-travelling-to-sandringham-a4022976.html

No doubt she had a sore arse when she alighted!

 

[Hadders]

She went in a 387. https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/...ak-by-travelling-to-sandringham-a4022976.html

Travelled in the standard class section at the very front of the train looking at the door she alighted from. Not that there's any difference between 1st and Standard.

Surprised they didn't rustle up a 365 to be honest.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

No doubt she had a sore arse when she alighted!

Philip wasn’t with her today...

 

[JonathanH]

GN side problems feeding through to the south side today as a full Peterborough to Horsham service is timetabled.

Three of the six Peterborough starters didn't go leaving gaps on the other side of London. A fourth picked up over 30 minutes delay before Hitchin.

It doesn't look like the Bedford to Gatwick trains (and v.v) were given stop orders for Merstham and Coulsdon South.

 

[ijmad]

I saw a Northbound Class 700 sail through West Dulwich northbound at around 0910 this morning, destination blind said Blackfriars, and it seemed to have passengers on board. I can't figure out where it was coming from or going to though. I can't find a matching service on RTT.

Anyone know what service this was? Something on diversion?

 

[greatkingrat]

I assume it was http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G74591/2019/01/03/advanced which didn't stop between Shortlands and Elephant.

 

[ijmad]

I assume it was http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G74591/2019/01/03/advanced which didn't stop between Shortlands and Elephant.

Ah, good find. I see there were technical issues on another train on the Catford Loop this morning so they must have been diverting trains via this route.

 

[TrenHotel]

Thameslink services were diverted away from the Greenwich line all day on New Year's Day, even though there was no engineering work on that line that day and Southeastern publicity had promised a normal service. Anyone know why?

 

[cjohnson]

Thameslink services were diverted away from the Greenwich line all day on New Year's Day, even though there was no engineering work on that line that day and Southeastern publicity had promised a normal service. Anyone know why?

Basically it appears they screwed up.

https://853london.com/2019/01/04/bu...rting-greenwich-line-trains-on-new-years-day/

A Thameslink spokesperson said: “Our hourly Thameslink service to Rainham was diverted away from Greenwich to run instead via Lewisham and Blackheath on New Year’s Day. This was a mistake for which we sincerely apologise. Southeastern continued to serve the route.”

 

[Mikey C]

Basically it appears they screwed up.

https://853london.com/2019/01/04/bu...rting-greenwich-line-trains-on-new-years-day/

A complete shambles. How can a train be diverted down the wrong line though, who controls the points and signals, is that the operator or National Rail?

 

[Ianno87]

A complete shambles. How can a train be diverted down the wrong line though, who controls the points and signals, is that the operator or National Rail?

Guess: GTR bid the schedules via Lewisham assuming there was an engineering posesseion via Greenwich, when there wasn't?