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Class 710 LO

47421

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What is the equivalent of crayonista for the “just run stock class x on line y” types? (ignoring stock clearance, route knowledge, stock availability, DOO issues etc...)

someone on LondonReconnections called it hornbyism. There is a detailed discussion of alternative options here

http://barking-gospeloak.org.uk/documents/20181119_stock_crisis_meeting.pdf

In summary:

- hire in electrostars with the necessary CCTV, but would require co-operation of other TOCs with little incentive for them to do so, suggests most likely is 387/3s from c2c at weekends only
- some 378s shortened to 4 car temporarily
- introduce non CCTV EMUs and reintroduce guards

No easy options as set out in that crisis meeting note
 
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HLE

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I doubt they'll do that. If the first 710 is being used to train up the DI's and drivers then entry into service won't be far off and certainly won't justify the cost of hire in's on a temporary basis
 

samuelmorris

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Carriages are all very well, but where are the driving motor cars coming from? Ya know, the ones with cabs?



Because that can happen quickly.
I don't think the shortening is to create extra units out of, it's just simply so that the units are short enough fit the platforms on the Goblin. They would still be borrowing said units from the other LO routes.
 

ijmad

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I don't think the shortening is to create extra units out of, it's just simply so that the units are short enough fit the platforms on the Goblin. They would still be borrowing said units from the other LO routes.

Ah, I guess that makes more sense. Seems unfair to trade one set of mystery for another though, the ELL branches are packed to the rafters during the peak hours too! Part of the 710 order is us getting more trains via cascade!
 

samuelmorris

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It does seem a little odd, but perhaps they're taking a leaf out of the 'share the pain' book from TfW!
After all, the 16tph frequency with 5-car trains in the ELL core being slightly reduced is probably less disastrous than ending up with 1tph for a 2-car DMU on the Goblin.

I'm not all that convinced the above will actually happen anyway to be honest, the responses documented in those meeting minutes are pretty vague and non-committal, but we'll see.
 

ijmad

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It does seem a little odd, but perhaps they're taking a leaf out of the 'share the pain' book from TfW!
After all, the 16tph frequency with 5-car trains in the ELL core being slightly reduced is probably less disastrous than ending up with 1tph for a 2-car DMU on the Goblin.

I'm not all that convinced the above will actually happen anyway to be honest, the responses documented in those meeting minutes are pretty vague and non-committal, but we'll see.

The problem is that reducing the 16tph in the core means reducing one or more of the branches from 4tph to 3tph, which is as bad as we're seeing on the GOBLIN when a train fails. Personally, I'd put money on no random trains ending up on the GOBLIN before the 710s finally squeak their way in to service. Much more likely it'll continue to be bustituted.
 

samuelmorris

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The problem is that reducing the 16tph in the core means reducing one or more of the branches from 4tph to 3tph, which is as bad as we're seeing on the GOBLIN when a train fails. Personally, I'd put money on no random trains ending up on the GOBLIN before the 710s finally squeak their way in to service. Much more likely it'll continue to be bustituted.
You're right of course, but from my experience, the 5-car 378s aren't quite as badly crush loaded as the 2-car 172s, particularly since a fair volume of the passengers that would be affected by a reduction on one of the branches can still use one of the other services (e.g. in the core there are 3 other options, as far as Sydenham there is still one alternative that could remain 4tph). I think this is a logical place to look in a crisis. Far more likely, however, is as you say, bustitution, which is already happening in the form of a supplementary service. My expectation is that the rail service will be ramped down and the bus service ramped up until say April, by which time either the 710s will have been introduced or, more likely, the route will revert to being fully bus-operated again for the remaining few weeks (hopefully not months!) before 710s start seeing passenger service.
 

Jonny

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Do the GOBLIN have to use dual-voltage units all the time, or could an AC unit from a different depot come in as a substitute?
 

59CosG95

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Do the GOBLIN have to use dual-voltage units all the time, or could an AC unit from a different depot come in as a substitute?
An AC unit from a different depot isn't gonna happen, as the 172s (and 710s) both have DOO cameras. So do the 378s, but all 378/2 NLL/WLL/Watford DC diagrams use 3rd rail for all or part of their journey, so their DV capability is needed. 317s and 315s can't be used as they don't have DOO cameras, despite being AC only.
 

samuelmorris

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An AC unit from a different depot isn't gonna happen, as the 172s (and 710s) both have DOO cameras. So do the 378s, but all 378/2 NLL/WLL/Watford DC diagrams use 3rd rail for all or part of their journey, so their DV capability is needed. 317s and 315s can't be used as they don't have DOO cameras, despite being AC only.
I read this as a 'once in service' query, quite possibly wrongly, but I'd also be curious to know if an AC only 710 from Ilford could cover the Goblin if a dual-voltage unit was unavailable, especially if there's more of the former to go around. I suppose the question is, how easily can I get there?
 

Aictos

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I read this as a 'once in service' query, quite possibly wrongly, but I'd also be curious to know if an AC only 710 from Ilford could cover the Goblin if a dual-voltage unit was unavailable, especially if there's more of the former to go around. I suppose the question is, how easily can I get there?

Quite easy Ilford - Liverpool Street - Forest Gate Junction - Barking or Ilford - Gas Factory Loop - Barking.

The first option allows you to access Platforms 1 or 7 while the second option allows you to access Platforms 7 or 8 so really depends on what paths are available but it's not too difficult to get from Ilford to Barking.
 

87015

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Quite easy Ilford - Liverpool Street - Forest Gate Junction - Barking or Ilford - Gas Factory Loop - Barking.

The first option allows you to access Platforms 1 or 7 while the second option allows you to access Platforms 7 or 8 so really depends on what paths are available but it's not too difficult to get from Ilford to Barking.
No route knowledge though. AC unit 114 now at Willesden.
 

Aictos

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No route knowledge though. AC unit 114 now at Willesden.

Not such a issue when you have drivers who can route conduct over the area where the LO drivers don't sign who don't have to work for LO usually in this case a driver from one of the freight operators or even ask the Rail Operations Group as well.

So no, it's not such a big deal but can be costly hiring in drivers to route conduct.
 

theking

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Why would they waste all that time sending an ac unit over? route conducting? Freight drivers? Just for the goblin and then what happens if the unit from ilford is required for the anglias

If it came to it they would just stick a 378 on the dc and use the 710 from there to the goblin.
 

KC1

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I think people are going to have a shock when those huge comfy, pretty much long distance seats in the 317s are replaced with longitudinal hard as a rock seating in the 710s. Just left one at chingford and it was one of my more pleasant journeys. Personally, the 710s can take as long as they want to be introduced.
 

MatthewRead

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I think people are going to have a shock when those huge comfy, pretty much long distance seats in the 317s are replaced with longitudinal hard as a rock seating in the 710s. Just left one at chingford and it was one of my more pleasant journeys. Personally, the 710s can take as long as they want to be introduced.
They won't be entering service on the West Anglia lines for a little while the first priority is the Gospel Oak-Barking and then the Euston-Watford Junction so you'll still have 315's and the wonderful 317's for a while longer ;)
 

BlyRF

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Not having heard of any news for a while I began to venture on twitter for updates and seems now that a single 4 car class 378 will hopefully be running as a temp replacement for when some of the 172s go off lease.

But even so any concrete updates on the 710 availability?
 

ijmad

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Do they have spare 378s at the moment or does this mean cancelled diagrams on the NLL or Watford-DC?
 

Ethano92

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Think they must've pulled one out the NNL/WDC as there are no spares.
Surely NLL or do Watford DC trains also have a pantograph? Either way it's funny because everytime anyone suggested using another train on the line they were shut down instantly going on about driver training issues etc but now it's apparently happening. God must know what other Aventura buyers are thinking, I for one am slightly disappointed I won't be on a 701 for quite some time after it was scheduled by the looks of it.
 

theking

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Bit different using a class 378 that are already LO than far fetched ideas of class 315 with tfl rail drivers and lo conductor drivers oh and fitting platform edge mirrors and monitors for non doo stock.

Can't see where they are going to get the trains from bar stopping the refreshes of the 378/1's and that's only one train as all routes in the peak are over capacity as it is that and the cost of modifying the 378's tfl shoild just bite the bullet and start the buses if the diesels go.
 

greatkingrat

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37 out of the 57 Class 378s are dual voltage, which includes all the NLL/WLL/DC trains, plus quite a few of the ELL trains.
 

plcd1

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Not having heard of any news for a while I began to venture on twitter for updates and seems now that a single 4 car class 378 will hopefully be running as a temp replacement for when some of the 172s go off lease.

But even so any concrete updates on the 710 availability?

Last I read was that the 710s have 20 known faults requiring a fix. I assume Bombardier are trying to fix those before attempting to re-accumulate "fault free" mileage. AIUI there have been no recent test runs of class 710s. I also assume that Bombardier are still prioritising fixes for Crossrail's class 345s over the 710s because Crossrail is the more important project.

I think the conversion of a 378 to four car formation is an act of near desperation to try to cover for the planned phased removal of 172s from Jan onwards. However there cannot be enough spare 378s to replace all the 172s so we are still headed for a mess on the GOBLIN. It is not tenable to cut the frequency down to x30 mins even if you have 1 378 running to offer more capacity. It's also not tenable, IMO, for TfL to start hacking the timetables on other LO routes. All that would do is spread the misery from one route to more of them thus risking a larger reputational fall out for TfL. I really cannot see them opting to inflict more damage on themselves. At present the mess is confined to one not very well known route in NE London which the media have little clue about. Bombardier really need to sort themselves out but no comment I've seen offers any early prospects of 710s in service - most people are now suggesting March or April by which time the GOBLIN will have no rail service as the 172s will have gone. And to think the contract envisaged the first 710s in service 1 year ago. :rolleyes:
 

rebmcr

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It's also not tenable, IMO, for TfL to start hacking the timetables on other LO routes. All that would do is spread the misery from one route to more of them thus risking a larger reputational fall out for TfL.

I don't think so. Trimming 10% of the stock from a line with 20 units is a much different headline than "ALL SERVICES CANCELLED — TfL's new fleet costing £Ms dead on arrival".
 

samuelmorris

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I'm starting to fear for the future of Derby works.
K
I wouldn't worry too much, things were similarly bad when the Electrostar was first introduced and look how many of those were ordered. The Aventra has already outsold the Desiro City by a considerable margin. Rolling stock development is too long a process for any TOC to justify cancelling their order and jumping ship. I think it's a foregone conclusion though that 710s aren't going to be seen en masse until the Summer or perhaps even the Autumn, and I don't imagine any of the other fleets will get a look in until a good few 710s are out and about. Whether, once the Goblin units are in, other TOCs are prioritised based on the end of lease arrangements for their existing stock remains to be seen.
 

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