Arriva Rail North DOO

[OxtedSignaller]

A notice issued by Southern not long after their OBSs were introduced made it clear that there was a need to check the platform at each station. How else would you know whether a wheelchair user was waiting to board? Scotrail presumably gets away with their TEs not doing so because the arrangement dates from when the accessibility requirements weren’t so comprehensive.

That's correct. Southern OBS are required to have key on up to the 30 seconds before departure, check the PTI, and be the last ones to step into the train. They are even issued whistles to hurry along stragglers. Yet officially they are not safety critical. They may as well have kept Conductors.

 

[muz379]

I bet there's messroom chat about it, though.

mess room chat and coordinated instruction from union officials is completely different though . And from the mess room chat I have heard in all depots I visit it has simply been drivers saying they wont be coming in because they dont have to , I dont get why there needs to be some mass conspiracy among staff all the time ?

To be honest its not surprising that working Sundays is unpopular given that the remuneration on a rest day is far better than a Sunday and the staffing levels / route knowledge deficits and other factors give a pretty much free reign over rest days for those that want them .

Sunday also wont be a popular day for people to work given drivers families are more likely to be off at weekends as well . For the same reason the number of people volunteering to work rest days on a Saturday is always smaller than a weekday .

Its really not some great conspiracy to have one over the company, passengers or anyone else , its just a fact of life that most people dont want to work any more weekends than they are obliged to .

I believe it’s been said Virgin did at one time consider the possibility of dispatch from some locations using CD/RA indicators, but dropped the idea pretty quickly once they realised the RMT wasn’t keen

Interested if you have a citation for this ?

The posts I was referring to emphasised they spent virtually all of the time in the saloon rather than the rear cab, It doesn’t state whether they’re obligated to check every platform or not , maybe someone else knows the answer to that .

If the stock has door controls in the saloon its perfectly possible to remain in the saloon virtually all of the time . I know at least on traction I sign which has all door controls in passengers saloons I remain in the saloon unless the train is full and standing and I cannot move down it(will be no different as an OBS) , or if I need to return to the rear cab to carry out some duty such as speaking on the phone to control or communicating with the driver about something relevant to the operation of the train again this will be no different as an OBS .

Fitting of intermediate door controls to stock not already fitted which is going to remain in the franchise for the long term would be a great way to resolve this dispute , alleviate the concerns about passengers wanting a more visible presence , conductors not being able to collect revenue from everybody because of having to return to the rear to operate the doors and would boost morale in the grade .

Because if every train is going to carry a member of staff on the same wage as a conductor with yearly pay increases as the company says , then there is nothing to be saved by not having them dispatch the train if they can do so from a greater range of places thus ensuring they collect more revenue . The only way running trains under the sole control of the driver will save any money is if there is a coordinated effort to actually run trains without the second member of staff .

I mean if I was working as an OBS, when the train is at a station i'm not going to be stood in the middle of the aisle selling or checking tickets whilst people are trying to move down the train to get off or finding a seat after getting on . I'm going to be stood out of the way in an off platform side doorway or vestibule somewhere once the train is approaching a station and will resume checking once the train gets on its way again . And as is being debated anyway I might have to make my way to the platform to check for anyone needing assistance .

 

[74A]

Because if every train is going to carry a member of staff on the same wage as a conductor with yearly pay increases as the company says , then there is nothing to be saved by not having them dispatch the train if they can do so from a greater range of places thus ensuring they collect more revenue . The only way running trains under the sole control of the driver will save any money is if there is a coordinated effort to actually run trains without the second member of staff .

You are forgetting the performance benefit. 20 to 40 seconds per stop. If a train has 20 stops on a journey that is 6 to 13 minutes. A significant amount of time.

 

[yorksrob]

They're expected to do that at London Overground.

Doubtless they are.

Is that the best way to operate the train ? I'm not convinced.

 

[yorksrob]

You are forgetting the performance benefit. 20 to 40 seconds per stop. If a train has 20 stops on a journey that is 6 to 13 minutes. A significant amount of time.

This is in no way worth the disruption we're being subjected to. Although I agree that drivers opening doors would be a more efficient way of doing things.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Doubtless they are. Is that the best way to operate the train ? I'm not convinced.

The operator in question seems happy enough, though, and they have a little more say in matters than our resident rail experts on this particular thread.

 

[yorksrob]

The operator in question seems happy enough, though, and they have a little more say in matters than our resident rail experts on this particular thread.

I'm sure they do. But if the last seventy years of railway development has taught us anything, its that the powers that be aren't always right.

 

[Carlisle]

Unions are supposed to be the safety net for working people but apparently some workers are more equal than others when it comes to the railway!

Yes presumably the doubling of passanger numbers over the last 20 years plus a regime of penalties for cancellations and delays combined with each individual TOC having only a pretty small staff training infrastructure or pool of spares available for cover during potential disputes mean those with ability to halt trains have been fortunate enough to acquire a large increase in bargaining power over that time, which undersatandably they don’t now wish to surrender easily, there’s the problem.

 

[Robertj21a]

Doubtless they are.

Is that the best way to operate the train ? I'm not convinced.

I'm not sure that anything would convince you !!. You appear to have very entrenched views that can only see a safety critical guard on every train - are you really Mick Cash ?

I'm sure the Overground drivers themselves, or frightening statistics, would provide the evidence you seem to be looking for. Unfortunately, after some years of operation, there appears to be nothing to support your concerns.

 

[Tomnick]

The posts I was referring to emphasised they spent virtually all of the time in the saloon rather than the rear cab, It doesn’t state whether they’re obligated to check every platform or not , maybe someone else knows the answer to that .

There’s no reason why guards, at the moment, shouldn’t spend virtually all their time in the saloon, although Northern’s restrictions on where they can dispatch the train from limit their options.

We're in danger of imagining it's only wheelchair users that need help. Last year I saw a Northern conductor very patiently helping a blind man across the massive gap out of a 150 at Dore & Totley. The old chap was so grateful and probably unaware the train was already 3 minutes late with another waiting to come the other way into the single platform. Something must have been said and he started telling how once there were 5 platforms, arm still clutching the conductor, very happy to reminisce for ever and a day. He was enjoying his day out.

Along with others waiting for the delayed TPE express I could see, and understand, the conflict. I doubt the controllers only seeing the knock on delays would have been impressed. It's hard to see how driver only trains deal with such situations, presumably hoping other passengers will come to the rescue.

You are, of course, correct. Under DOO, anyone needing assistance would need to book it in advance (it’s preferable to do that anyway, but not an absolute requirement). That rules out any sort of spontaneous travel or changes to plan, and it’s an obvious problem if the man in a van (or however they’ll get assistance to rural stations) doesn’t get there in time.

You are forgetting the performance benefit. 20 to 40 seconds per stop. If a train has 20 stops on a journey that is 6 to 13 minutes. A significant amount of time.

Where do you get those figures from? The total dwell time is often less than that. The RSSB themselves reckon that it’ll save seven seconds per stop. I’d probably take a couple of seconds off that myself because the saving from not having to wait for the local door to close will be offset by the driver’s safety check which must surely take longer (if done thoroughly) by scanning a collection of images than by just observing the platform directly. You’ll soon lose that, and plenty more, on a busy train where everyone’s determined to file through a single door or passengers are trying to shove unfolded pushchairs where there’s no space for unfolded pushchairs, with no-one to sort them out.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm not sure that anything would convince you !!. You appear to have very entrenched views that can only see a safety critical guard on every train - are you really Mick Cash ?

I'm sure the Overground drivers themselves, or frightening statistics, would provide the evidence you seem to be looking for. Unfortunately, after some years of operation, there appears to be nothing to support your concerns.

I wouldn't say it's an entrenched view, it just seems plausible to me that someone on the platform is going to have a better view of assorted party-goers than the driver will have when he's trying to drive the train.

Since you want an entrenched view, I'll provide you with my one:

Once you've accepted that Northern trains are going to have to have a second person on board almost all of the time to assist disabled passengers/collect revenue etc:

1)There is absolutely no point in having a dispute over what that second person does - It's not worth the economic upheaval, the taxpayer funding spent propping up the TOC's or my inconvenience. Come to a compromise as at Scotrail.

2) There is absolutely no point in having a dispute over the odd occasions when a train might not be able to run due to a guard not showing up. I'd far rather live with that risk than undergo further prolonged industrial action.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is in no way worth the disruption we're being subjected to. Although I agree that drivers opening doors would be a more efficient way of doing things.

Yes, this should happen on every UK train except at stations where "local door" is necessary. It gives you the majority of the time and convenience savings without the downsides of DOO. It already happens on a good many of them.

DOO does give you a slightly greater saving on a local stopping service, though - it takes about 10 seconds less for a DOO dispatch than a guarded one, particularly on trains with slow doors. This would be the OBS (time) argument. That is, close local door, ding ding, ding ding takes somewhere between 5 and 10 seconds.

 

[Robertj21a]

I wouldn't say it's an entrenched view, it just seems plausible to me that someone on the platform is going to have a better view of assorted party-goers than the driver will have when he's trying to drive the train.

Since you want an entrenched view, I'll provide you with my one:

Once you've accepted that Northern trains are going to have to have a second person on board almost all of the time to assist disabled passengers/collect revenue etc:

1)There is absolutely no point in having a dispute over what that second person does - It's not worth the economic upheaval, the taxpayer funding spent propping up the TOC's or my inconvenience. Come to a compromise as at Scotrail.

2) There is absolutely no point in having a dispute over the odd occasions when a train might not be able to run due to a guard not showing up. I'd far rather live with that risk than undergo further prolonged industrial action.

That is just your view, it won't be others. Some people, presumably including the DfT, will want the flexibility that is expected out in the normal 'real' world of business - so that trains can always run (even with just the driver, in exceptional circumstances) and that 'safety critical' isn't just used by the RMT to protect their membership numbers forever more. The compromise, if any, should be for a second person to be an OBS - primarily dedicated to customer service, not door controls.

 

[Carlisle]

1)There is absolutely no point in having a dispute over what that second person does - It's not worth the economic upheaval, the taxpayer funding spent propping up the TOC's or my inconvenience. Come to a compromise as at Scotrail.

2) There is absolutely no point in having a dispute over the odd occasions when a train might not be able to run due to a guard not showing up. I'd far rather live with that risk than undergo further prolonged industrial action.

I’ve no idea if that argument will ultimately triumph but it’s almost the same argument the RMT always put forward whenever a TOC has considered altering the guards role in any meaningful way over the last 20 years,
Scotral wasn’t a compromise ( zero flexibility gained) it was simply a pragmatic decision taken by the Scottish govt at the time (which I appreciate a fair number agree with) to back down rather than endure any further strikes by the RMT and/or an ASLEF ballot. .

 

[woodmally]

Watch this space. Tonight/ tomorrow.

I wont hold my breath for anything interesting. It will just be either A) the release of the strike dates for next year aka Saturdays again. Or B) a postponement of them over Christmas out of goodness of their hearts. My money is on A)

 

[muz379]

You are forgetting the performance benefit. 20 to 40 seconds per stop. If a train has 20 stops on a journey that is 6 to 13 minutes. A significant amount of time.

Given that most trains are timed in and out of most stations 30 seconds apart there is no 20-40 seconds to gain including the actual time it takes for passengers to board and alight . And the significance of the time gained is wholly relevant to the length of time the service takes to get from A-B anyway . Thinking of services I currently work with 20 stops the journey time is well over 1hr 30 in most cases it is 2 hours or more .So 6-13 minutes is not that significant of a time saving .

I can also think of plenty of busy self dispatch stations that would need staff on the platform to achieve any time saving , because currently guards will be blowing the whistle ,advising people to use all doors and directing people with bikes/luggage at busier times at these stations .

And of course there is no guarantee of this time saving anyway because depending on what method of working is introduced for the second person to make themselves aware of passengers needing assistance they might need to physically look on the platform to check nobody needs assistance .

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given that most trains are timed in and out of most stations 30 seconds apart there is no 20-40 seconds to gain including the actual time it takes for passengers to board and alight . And the significance of the time gained is wholly relevant to the length of time the service takes to get from A-B anyway . Thinking of services I currently work with 20 stops the journey time is well over 1hr 30 in most cases it is 2 hours or more .So 6-13 minutes is not that significant of a time saving

It very much is. Sometimes it can even tip you over the edge of requiring an additional unit.

Branch line running times, for instance, are frustratingly glacial. Bedford to Bletchley is a good example of this, and it is similar to a good many Northern urban and rural DMU operations, particularly the likes of the CLC. Switch to driver door operation (keep the guard) and institute request stops at the very quiet stations using bus style stop buttons as the Swiss do, and you'd take 5 minutes off at least.

Basically, take a look at Metrolink operations - there is no reason Northern operations should be slower, other than that a DMU accelerates a bit more slowly than a tram.

 

[Kite159]

I wont hold my breath for anything interesting. It will just be either A) the release of the strike dates for next year aka Saturdays again. Or B) a postponement of them over Christmas out of goodness of their hearts. My money is on A)

My 1p on also on option A, maybe with a nice week long strike at the start of January

 

[Robertj21a]

Given that most trains are timed in and out of most stations 30 seconds apart there is no 20-40 seconds to gain including the actual time it takes for passengers to board and alight . And the significance of the time gained is wholly relevant to the length of time the service takes to get from A-B anyway . Thinking of services I currently work with 20 stops the journey time is well over 1hr 30 in most cases it is 2 hours or more .So 6-13 minutes is not that significant of a time saving .

I can also think of plenty of busy self dispatch stations that would need staff on the platform to achieve any time saving , because currently guards will be blowing the whistle ,advising people to use all doors and directing people with bikes/luggage at busier times at these stations .

And of course there is no guarantee of this time saving anyway because depending on what method of working is introduced for the second person to make themselves aware of passengers needing assistance they might need to physically look on the platform to check nobody needs assistance .

I would have thought many people (the TOC in particular) would see a 6-13mins improvement highly desirable !!.

 

[woodmally]

My 1p on also on option A, maybe with a nice week long strike at the start of January

I cant imagine that to be honest, I could be wrong. Reason I dont think so is that a week long strike will mean a smaller wage packet in January. First month after the Xmas expenses. I don't think the members will appreciate that one. I could be wrong though.

 

[muz379]

It very much is. Sometimes it can even tip you over the edge of requiring an additional unit.

Branch line running times, for instance, are frustratingly glacial. Bedford to Bletchley is a good example of this, and it is similar to a good many Northern urban and rural DMU operations, particularly the likes of the CLC. Switch to driver door operation (keep the guard) and institute request stops at the very quiet stations using bus style stop buttons as the Swiss do, and you'd take 5 minutes off at least.

Basically, take a look at Metrolink operations - there is no reason Northern operations should be slower, other than that a DMU accelerates a bit more slowly than a tram.

Branch line running wont be in the region of 20 stops though , and currently on Northern are the lines that are probably going to more likely need a guard because of traction and infrastructure limitations . Not to mention the unstaffed station on most branch lines at which a second person will be required to check the platform for people requiring assistance .

Besides the 6-13 minutes is largely academic and Is certainly not in line with figures produced by the industry .

Having multiple request stops on one line is not a great idea in terms of planning because there is then a penalty and possible PPM failure if the train is requested to stop at all the request stops . Anytime that you save by making multiple stations request stops ought be added on to any turnaround time if you want to operate a robust timetable . Otherwise just being requested to stop at all of them just once there and back could knock the DMU diagram out for the remainder of the day . Similar to the effect that late running on certain single lines can do unless a service one way is cancelled or turned back early .

Besides I thought the whole point of this new stock which is supposedly (the TOC is yet to confirm anythign) going to be worked by sole control of the driver is that it is going to be stopping at limited stops . Even further reducing the potential for such supposedly significant time savings .If anything the opposite is true , the limited stop services will probably end up with increased dwell times at stations which would enable a guard to close the doors no problem .

Metrolink does not operate a schedule timetable or rely on sharing paths with other trains or varying timings in the way that trains do on Network rail infrastructure .A tram losing time because of a particularly busy station with nobody to guide passengers to quickly board wont cause delay minutes and attribution issues like what would occur on the railway .

I would have thought many people (the TOC in particular) would see a 6-13mins improvement highly desirable !!.

See above , the 6-13 minutes is based on the inaccurate suggestions . The new stock which is going to be DOO capable supposedly wont be being worked on the sort of stopping pattern that could see any time saving of the sort mentioned .

 

[woodmally]

So RMT have announced on Facebook no talks as Northern have refused. Well back to no work Saturdays for them then.

 

[Confused52]

So RMT have announced on Facebook no talks as Northern have refused. Well back to no work Saturdays for them then.

My reading of the press release is that ARN again did not agree to meet to capitulate. Read it carefully and sceptically, https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/40th-day-of-rmt-northern-rail-action-goes-ahead/ it does not even clearly state that they have asked ARN again, it just leaves you with that impression. Very carefully written to given an impression without actually confirming anything but their own position.

 

[coppercapped]

Doubtless they are.

Is that the best way to operate the train ? I'm not convinced.

Are you real? London Underground carries nearly HALF of ALL rail passenger journeys made in the country.

These trains really are operated with only one person on board - right out to the fringes of the system. in relation to the huge number of people carried every day the number of incidents is vanishingly small - in 2017-18 there was a total of 4,700 injuries reported of which 110 were major injuries.

Again in 2017-18 there was a total of 437 train accidents on all of the railways in Great Britain, of which 3% (14 incidents) occurred on the Underground.

Seems that trains with more than one member of staff on board are more dangerous...

Maybe it is the best way to operate trains.

 

[syorksdeano]

So RMT have announced on Facebook no talks as Northern have refused. Well back to no work Saturdays for them then.

I was half expecting that statement to also announce further strike dates, or are we to expect them to be announced Monday morning?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I cant imagine that to be honest, I could be wrong. Reason I dont think so is that a week long strike will mean a smaller wage packet in January. First month after the Xmas expenses. I don't think the members will appreciate that one. I could be wrong though.

Striking on 1st Jan would be a good way to annoy...absolutely nobody

(I suppose it wouldn't annoy Northern, though, as they'd save the cash they would otherwise spend on running a fully staffed network of ECS trains as seems normally to be the case on that date)

 

[Robertj21a]

Ha ha, so the RMT remains angry because they aren't getting their own way - no surprise there then. I can well imagine that Arriva will only progress these matters when the RMT matures enough to be considered professional.

 

[Robertj21a]

I was half expecting that statement to also announce further strike dates, or are we to expect them to be announced Monday morning?

Perhaps some local members have told the leaders to grow up, or at least re-think tactics before they waste even more time and money.

 

[Carlisle]

I was half expecting that statement to also announce further strike dates, or are we to expect them to be announced Monday morning?

Reading it suggests it was just a exact repeat of all demands they made a week or two ago in order to suspend the strikes

 

[yorksrob]

I’ve no idea if that argument will ultimately triumph but it’s almost the same argument the RMT always put forward whenever a TOC has considered altering the guards role in any meaningful way over the last 20 years,
Scotral wasn’t a compromise ( zero flexibility gained) it was simply a pragmatic decision taken by the Scottish govt at the time (which I appreciate a fair number agree with) to back down rather than endure any further strikes by the RMT and/or an ASLEF ballot. .

Driver open/guard close is a substantial compromise on the traditional guards role and offers real benefits in terms of time/efficiency.