Alliance Blackpool service to be run by Grand Central and start in 2021

[pt_mad]

Easily on double yellows after 90 seconds - so no impediment from a standing start. The P5 merge back onto the Down Fast is a decent speed turnout just off the end of the platform so is no real impediment.

So it's totally doable like that then.

 

[pt_mad]

1.

GNWR and LNWR sound too similar when announced which could lead to confusion.

Thing is, LNR services are currently announced 'London Northwestern Railway Service: and not 'LNWR service'

So as long as GNWR have theirs announced 'GNWR service, it shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Mollman]

As things stand, I believe Preston and Nuneaton currently dispatch all services. If it happens to be on their local dispatch plans that all services should be dispatched then will GNWR just be able to say we'll self dispatch?

Although I have seen Northern guards self dispatch out of frustration waiting for a member of VT staff at Preston before now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although I have seen Northern guards self dispatch out of frustration waiting for a member of VT staff at Preston before now.

Bit concerning that any safety critical staff are doing anything "out of frustration", really (strong emotions and safety critical work do not go together well at all). Surely just sit down, get the paper out and wait for them to show up - the delay is not their fault, and if it's masked it won't get fixed.

 

[pt_mad]

Although I have seen Northern guards self dispatch out of frustration waiting for a member of VT staff at Preston before now.

I believe some dispatch plans allow some services to self dispatch if either control are informed or it's on a one off basis because no staff were available at the time.

I would still guess that GNWR would need to pay station access charges. Even charter companies have to pay those to stop.

Will the GNWR offer booked assistance through the customer assistance system? If so, who will be assisting their customers at the stations, such as visually impaired and hearing impaired customers who need guiding to and from the platform? If it will need to be TOC staff, then surely GNWR are going to have to pay? If you need to pay access charges it may be it's worth being dispatched to guarantee a staff presence there for your train and to help your customers.

What are current arrangements with grand Central at York and other stops? Who provides booked assistance to and from the platform for their passengers? Who puts the ramps down to the train?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe some dispatch plans allow some services to self dispatch if either control are informed or it's on a one off basis because no staff were available at the time.

That sounds rather more like it.

 

[Aictos]

LNWR should change it's name because an hourly service to Preston that hasn't even started yet doesn't count as a valid reason to include NW. But that's for another thread...

I wasn't referring to the fact that LNWR ought change it's name but rather that GNWR ought to use the more established Grand Central brand.

Thing is, LNR services are currently announced 'London Northwestern Railway Service: and not 'LNWR service'

So as long as GNWR have theirs announced 'GNWR service, it shouldn't be a problem.

True but see my reply above this one for what I believe it ought to be announced as!

 

[PR1Berske]

I would suggest that there will be very little confusion if "Great NorthWestern Railway service" is announced at Blackpool North: there is no London NorthWestern Railway train with which to get confused

 

[Aictos]

I would suggest that there will be very little confusion if "Great NorthWestern Railway service" is announced at Blackpool North: there is no London NorthWestern Railway train with which to get confused

It doesn't take much to confuse people for example many people still think BR exists, Cross Country is still operated by Virgin Trains and that rail travel is far better aboard.

 

[The Planner]

So it's totally doable like that then.

They will be on a green 90 seconds later. Not that Ive timed it (cough) you normally get a green 75-80 seconds after a pass on P6.

 

[sjoh]

It doesn't take much to confuse people for example many people still think BR exists, Cross Country is still operated by Virgin Trains and that rail travel is far better aboard.

I think I'd most certainly agree that rail travel is a lot better when aboard, yes.

 

[driver_m]

They will be on a green 90 seconds later. Not that Ive timed it (cough) you normally get a green 75-80 seconds after a pass on P6.

Only because the 3 signals after are so close together .Crafty, but I'd wager something like a 350 following from pl.5 would see 2 yellows for some time.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Given the delays on getting the LNER Azumas into service, is it likely that the 225s will not be released in enough time to get GNWR drivers/guards trained up? if the 800s and 801s are in service by Spring 2019, then that should be enough time IMO, but if there is a further delay....

 

[The Planner]

September slipping to December now apparently....

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Given the delays on getting the LNER Azumas into service, is it likely that the 225s will not be released in enough time to get GNWR drivers/guards trained up? if the 800s and 801s are in service by Spring 2019, then that should be enough time IMO, but if there is a further delay....

Have GNWR even confirmed a deal with Eversholt yet for the IC225 sets?
The only firm cascade plan is the one for Transport for Wales, for 3 short sets of Mk4s to be in service by Dec 2019.
That doesn't look at risk for now at least, but the Mk3s they will replace must go off-lease by then.

 

[paddyb6]

New to this thread and just want to know a few questions:
1. IF the service happens, WHEN will they commence service
2. Are the Class 91s confirmed as being the stock for the service?
Thanks for any information

 

[XCTurbostar]

1. IF the service happens, WHEN will they commence service

December 2019. Thats all we know at the moment. Most likely when the timetable changes on the Sunday 9th December 2019.

2. Are the Class 91s confirmed as being the stock for the service?

Confirmed, the track access which has been given is given only for the use of 'Class 91 Locomotive and up to 7 Mk 4 coaches and a DVT'.

 

[paddyb6]

December 2019. Thats all we know at the moment. Most likely when the timetable changes on the Sunday 9th December 2019.

Confirmed, the track access which has been given is given only for the use of 'Class 91 Locomotive and up to 7 Mk 4 coaches and a DVT'.

Thanks for your Info

 

[pt_mad]

September slipping to December now apparently....

Really does make you wonder how realistic this year is at all now. Given afaik they will need to recruit all their front line staff and train them. Acquire the trains and then test them and clear them on the WCML. Presumably they'd set up their control alongside Grand Central in Birmingham?

 

[ainsworth74]

If the paths expire, again, will the ORR give them to GNWR again? There surely must come a point where the ORR has to say that it's untenable to continue giving access rights that are then not used?

 

[pt_mad]

If the paths expire, again, will the ORR give them to GNWR again? There surely must come a point where the ORR has to say that it's untenable to continue giving access rights that are then not used?

I would imagine it would be difficult this time. Last time, they planned to acquire brand new trains from Alstom, and the design had expired and they couldn't reach a deal.
This time, the plan is somewhat more realistic given its based on an existing stock which is due to come off lease some time soon. And it's definitely not their fault that the IEPs are late so they couldn't be held responsible for a delay in rolling stock due to that.

 

[whhistle]

Given the delays on getting the LNER Azumas into service, is it likely that the 225s will not be released in enough time to get GNWR drivers/guards trained up? if the 800s and 801s are in service by Spring 2019, then that should be enough time IMO, but if there is a further delay....

Could GNWR poach some staff from East Coast and they'd take their traction knowledge with them?
For an extra few thousand a year, or an "introductory bonus", better terms and conditions, I'm sure a few might switch.

 

[TheGrew]

I wish they had another stop somewhere between Crewe and Preston. I appreciate abstraction could be an issue but the train will have go meander through Warrington pretty slowly anyway. I would love to see a stop at Newton-le-Willows (which would need a platform extension to the east to accommodate) as it serves the area pretty well but has very little in regards to a North-South service.

 

[Mathew S]

I wish they had another stop somewhere between Crewe and Preston. I appreciate abstraction could be an issue but the train will have go meander through Warrington pretty slowly anyway. I would love to see a stop at Newton-le-Willows (which would need a platform extension to the east to accommodate) as it serves the area pretty well but has very little in regards to a North-South service.

Agreed. It's a golden opportunity to provide some competition (and improve service levels) Crewe-Warrington-(Newton/Earlestown)-Wigan-Preston. There is no competition at all on that route and it's (partly) how Virgin get away with a woeful 1tph north to/from Crewe and stupid prices from Preston, Wigan, and Warrington to London.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Could GNWR poach some staff from East Coast and they'd take their traction knowledge with them?
For an extra few thousand a year, or an "introductory bonus", better terms and conditions, I'm sure a few might switch.

unless the staff are London based, I doubt that £1K would be attractive

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Agreed. It's a golden opportunity to provide some competition (and improve service levels) Crewe-Warrington-(Newton/Earlestown)-Wigan-Preston. There is no competition at all on that route and it's (partly) how Virgin get away with a woeful 1tph north to/from Crewe and stupid prices from Preston, Wigan, and Warrington to London.

You do realise VT are only following the franchise spec laid down by DfT?
DfT have never specified additional services between Crewe and Preston, and don't want VT calling at Crewe even with the 3tpd Blackpool services.
The WCP spec, currently being bid for, is no better.
I'm sure part of this is to avoid building more Pendolinos (or similar), before HS2 arrives and changes the picture entirely.
The other issue is where they could go at each end - Birmingham is "full" and there is no obvious destination in the north west without running through to Scotland which would undermine the existing VT/TPE balance between Glasgow and Edinburgh.
It might also not work on the northern WCML anyway as passenger trains are flighted to maintain freight access (cue single-headed class 66s eating up capacity in the gaps).
DfT/NR did have an RUS plan for an hourly Euston-Preston taking stops out of the Glasgow service, but once again that has failed because of lack of Pendolinos.
If there was more stock, the next obstacle would be capacity at Euston during the HS2 works.

 

[PR1Berske]

If there was more stock, the next obstacle would be capacity at Euston during the HS2 works.

I might be remembering incorrectly, didn't one form of the original GNWR bid have Queen's Park as its terminus because of the HS2 works?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I might be remembering incorrectly, didn't one form of the original GNWR bid have Queen's Park as its terminus because of the HS2 works?

Yes it did, but in the end NR allowed through services to Euston.

 

[The Planner]

No one knew what the HS2 effect on Euston was at the time so Queens Park was used.

 

[Mathew S]

You do realise VT are only following the franchise spec laid down by DfT?
DfT have never specified additional services between Crewe and Preston, and don't want VT calling at Crewe even with the 3tpd Blackpool services.
The WCP spec, currently being bid for, is no better.
I'm sure part of this is to avoid building more Pendolinos (or similar), before HS2 arrives and changes the picture entirely.
The other issue is where they could go at each end - Birmingham is "full" and there is no obvious destination in the north west without running through to Scotland which would undermine the existing VT/TPE balance between Glasgow and Edinburgh.
It might also not work on the northern WCML anyway as passenger trains are flighted to maintain freight access (cue single-headed class 66s eating up capacity in the gaps).
DfT/NR did have an RUS plan for an hourly Euston-Preston taking stops out of the Glasgow service, but once again that has failed because of lack of Pendolinos.
If there was more stock, the next obstacle would be capacity at Euston during the HS2 works.

I mean is an obvious solution to that not just to allow an hourly Crewe - Warrington - Newton - Wigan - Preston service? Two 319s shuttling either way would be plenty wouldn't it? Well no, the obvious solution is just to stop the new Blackpool paths, but in the absence of that...