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Suggestions for future use of Class 332s post-HEx

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edwin_m

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As I understood it the mechanicals are CAF and the electrical parts are Siemens. Not sure which the bogies are counted as.
 
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The_Engineer

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Hello all

Just thought I'd like to add to this, as I am internal with Siemens and can provide a bit of info.

As far as I am aware, there is no future plans for these units. There is a number of issues with them at present with bodywork & bogies, and they are also non standard type Desiros. They do not have TPWS either which would have to be retrofitted, but it is unlikely this will happen.

Heathrow own the units and would have to be sold by themselves to another party to be in with a chance of surviving. They will probably be put into storage as a result.

Cheers
Thanks. You have confirmed what many of us have been saying - they are for scrap...….
 
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I can only really see these being broken down and used as spares for Northern's 333s. Sounds like too much hassle to retrofit them.
 

Iskra

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The best place I can think of for them would be some of the longer Northern electrified routes out of Manchester.

Or perhaps to replace 321/322 in the Yorkshire area.
 

js1000

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The best place I can think of for them would be some of the longer Northern electrified routes out of Manchester.

Or perhaps to replace 321/322 in the Yorkshire area.
Can't see them fitting in anywhere when better alternatives are on the horizon for Northern. The 331s will directly replace the 321s/322s.

Surplus 323s are already queuing up - Northern are the only realistic takers for them. These are well suited to the Northern network as 3 carriage units - additionally they could also just about operate as 6 carriages on some key routes such as Blackpool North-Bolton-Manchester-Airport.

My expectation is that Porterbrook will exchange Northern's 319s for the remaining 323s (including WMTs remaining 26 units by 2021) over the next couple of years. This will then allow PB to convert more 319s to 769s or strip them out for spares. At the same time, it will ensure the 323s should have a home for next 10+ years. They've been burnt once after cancelling Northern's lease on the 323s in the hope the new West Midlands franchise would take them when actually they opted for new trains - they're not going to make that mistake again.

I concur with the view that the 332s will be broken up for spares unfortunately.
 

43096

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The best place I can think of for them would be some of the longer Northern electrified routes out of Manchester.

Or perhaps to replace 321/322 in the Yorkshire area.
Some of the new 331s will be going to Yorkshire to replace the 321/322 fleet.
 

Jonny

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Am I right in thinking that they can be reduced to 3 car? As it stands they have about 10hp/tonne on a four-car formation (less on a five car) so some of the TSOs (especially from the 5 cars, but also the 4s) may be at risk of becoming scrap even if the trains see further use. They might be of use working at Northern with the 333s in West Yorkshire, which were originally 3 car anyway and could be reverted back if need be.
 

hexagon789

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Am I right in thinking that they can be reduced to 3 car? As it stands they have about 10hp/tonne on a four-car formation (less on a five car) so some of the TSOs (especially from the 5 cars, but also the 4s) may be at risk of becoming scrap even if the trains see further use. They might be of use working at Northern with the 333s in West Yorkshire, which were originally 3 car anyway and could be reverted back if need be.

The trailer cars could contain some of the auxiliary equipment, an number of multiple-units are arranged like this, which would preclude shortening them without potentially significant alterations being made.
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
Can't see them fitting in anywhere when better alternatives are on the horizon for Northern. The 331s will directly replace the 321s/322s.

Surplus 323s are already queuing up - Northern are the only realistic takers for them. These are well suited to the Northern network as 3 carriage units - additionally they could also just about operate as 6 carriages on some key routes such as Blackpool North-Bolton-Manchester-Airport.

My expectation is that Porterbrook will exchange Northern's 319s for the remaining 323s (including WMTs remaining 26 units by 2021) over the next couple of years. This will then allow PB to convert more 319s to 769s or strip them out for spares. At the same time, it will ensure the 323s should have a home for next 10+ years. They've been burnt once after cancelling Northern's lease on the 323s in the hope the new West Midlands franchise would take them when actually they opted for new trains - they're not going to make that mistake again.

I concur with the view that the 332s will be broken up for spares unfortunately.


According to the "Long Term Out of Use Units" thread, I remember there is a recent post mentioning that 332005 and 014 have already been stripped for spare parts (or words more or less to that effect).
 

332 > 444

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005 as well? Before I had left there, 014 was long out of use and another poster on here who's another ex-hex posted (not on here) 014 insides had been gutted out.
 

JN114

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05 and 14 have the intermediate vehicles sat on accommodation bogies out in the yard between the main shed and the Wycombe Line.

They are capable of being reduced to 3 car sets - indeed when they first started operating between Paddington and Heathrow Junction temporary station it was in 3 car form. HOWEVER. The likelihood of them seeing work with their northern cousins is very remote, for reasons I’ve stated in this thread before.

1) They are wholly owned by Heathrow Airport. For them to enter the traditional UK rail vehicle market they will have to be purchased by a ROSCO. With all the major players having a glut of similar-age EMUs on their hands they can’t shift, why are they going to buy more.

2) The units are not fitted with TPWS. TPWS is mandatory for all units - the only reason the 332s got a derogation is because they only operate on lines wholly fitted with the more capable GW-ATP system, which the units are fitted with. That would cost any future owner additional £££ to replace the ATP gear with TPWS as well as purchase cost.

3) The units are mechanically shot - while they had an interior refresh a few years ago they’ve never had a serious mechanical overhaul since being built over 20 years ago. This has manifested itself in some serious issues a couple of years ago that saw the whole fleet stopped on safety grounds for several weeks, with 360s deputising on HX duties and GWR providing 16x to operate a Padd - Hayes shuttle in lieu of Connect services. This would seem to be further evidenced that 2 of the 14-strong fleet appear to have been stopped for good, with not only minor fittings removed but mechanical running gear robbed aswell to keep the other 12 going until the 387s come in next year.

4) Northern have other EMU plans for operation alongside the 333s with new build stock, indicating quite clearly that even if the 332s were on the table, they’re clearly not interested and happy to pay for new build stock instead - new build stock that is already being built.

With all that the 332s are only going to the scrap heap when they’re withdrawn next year - if it were economically viable to keep them running Heathrow Express would be, and they wouldn’t be paying GWR the sums of money it is to modify 14 of their 387s to replace them from next year.
 

whhistle

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Probably been asked before: are the 332 intermediate coaches compatible with 333s?
If so, could Northern take some of the good ones to lengthen some of their own trains?
 

modernrail

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On mechanical condition, have Northern looked after theirs better then? It seems extraordinary that poor maintenance has lopped 15 years off the life expectancy of the Heathrow Express trains.

The 333's still feel like the most modern train on the east of the Pennines by far. For me, they are better in feel than the 185s as they are much quieter, being electric rather than diesel. That is even despite the fact that they are unrefurbished and 3+2 seating, which tells you something about the disgraceful state of rolling stock up north in general.
 

332 > 444

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On mechanical condition, have Northern looked after theirs better then? It seems extraordinary that poor maintenance has lopped 15 years off the life expectancy of the Heathrow Express trains.

The 333's still feel like the most modern train on the east of the Pennines by far. For me, they are better in feel than the 185s as they are much quieter, being electric rather than diesel. That is even despite the fact that they are unrefurbished and 3+2 seating, which tells you something about the disgraceful state of rolling stock up north in general.

Money, always buck passing when it came to decide who's to pay for what repairs, particularly when they had to pull the whole fleet out of service.
 

Dave91131

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Such a shame, like countless things with the railway today - units nowhere near life expired (or wouldn't be had they been looked after properly since their introduction), built for a specific purpose, have fulfilled that purpose well, destined to likely be scrapped or at the very least moved elsewhere.

Good fleet size for the work they do - 10 required daily (assuming all trains operate as pairs) from a fleet of 14 or even 13 (if 1 good unit was made from the demic 005 and 014) would still be pretty good in comparison to a lot of other TOC's.

But no. In the bin they go.
 
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Possibly the fact that the 333s pootle around stopping everywhere compared to the 332s hammering up and down at 100mph might have something to do with the faster decline of those units.
 

JN114

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Such a shame, like countless things with the railway today - units nowhere near life expired (or wouldn't be had they been looked after properly since their introduction), built for a specific purpose, have fulfilled that purpose well, destined to likely be scrapped or at the very least moved elsewhere.

To be fair, it’s not just their mechanical neglect that’s the problem.

They’re non-standard to the rest of the UK rolling stock fleet - missing otherwise mandatory safety equipment (TPWS) and not within the rolling stock leasing system that’s generally required by franchised operations. The ROSCOs will have to stump up huge sums of money to 1) take ownership of them off Heathrow Airport and 2) fit them with TPWS, and likely at the same time make the interior less Airport-y. All while they already have a large contingent of relatively equivalent EMUs either already sat completely idle, or coming off lease in the not too distant future.

Wasteful, perhaps. But more wasteful would be spending millions on the 332 fleet and binning nearly as new 321s and newer 360s/379s from Greater Anglia in a couple of years time.

Without HS2 closing the only remaining depot they can reach within their constrained geographical operating area they may have soldiered on until the original TA agreement elapsed in 2023; but with how hard the fleet is worked and Heathrow’s reluctance to invest further in the fleet I can’t see how they would have survived beyond then.
 

MarlowDonkey

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they wouldn’t be paying GWR the sums of money it is to modify 14 of their 387s to replace them from next year.

GWR's 387s are standard class only, so like Chiltern's 168s in that respect. In one of the carriages, there's an internal door. Is that there for possible conversion of one side of it to First Class?
 

JN114

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GWR's 387s are standard class only, so like Chiltern's 168s in that respect. In one of the carriages, there's an internal door. Is that there for possible conversion of one side of it to First Class?

It is, correct.
 

Mikey C

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Is there a chance Heathrow Airport will keep them for any possible future services (e.g. the Western access)?
 

whhistle

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It's a shame they're not in better condition as perhaps Corby services would make use of the 14 sets?
 

TheGrew

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Probably been asked before: are the 332 intermediate coaches compatible with 333s?
If so, could Northern take some of the good ones to lengthen some of their own trains?
I wondered this as well, it would be good if they could be bolted on to lengthen the 333s.
 

Crossover

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Probably been asked before: are the 332 intermediate coaches compatible with 333s?
If so, could Northern take some of the good ones to lengthen some of their own trains?

I wondered this as well, it would be good if they could be bolted on to lengthen the 333s.

Not sure on the technical, but I think a number of stations would need platform lengthening to accommodate more than the current 4 car sets
 

D365

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I do enjoy how keen some forum members seem to be to rehome the HEx units, while units such as the Class 365s are already still available!
 
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