• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

failure by multiple TOCs to carry passengers with itineraries.

Status
Not open for further replies.

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
4,622
Yet again we see a failure by ‘the railway’ leaving a passenger (a friend of mine) out of pocket and stranded in Scotland.

They have an advanced ticket from Ayr to Peterborough with an itinerary for the 0513 from Ayr to Glasgow and the direct 0648 LNER to Peterborough.

On arrival at Ayr station this morning they found it was closed and no services are running for an undisclosed amount of time. In a panic she made her own way to Glasgow to find no mention of the 0648 on the boards. No Scotrail staff were present but a VT staff member said there is no 0648 and denied any knowledge of it despite the passenger having an advanced ticket for it.
They were told that they would not be allowed to catch a service by a different operator and they refused to help further.

How pathetic. Yet again we see a system that is so monumentally flawed it’s a wonder we still have a railway. She has gone back to Ayr (by her own methods) as she cannot get home today.

Essentially all the twitter teams have passed on the blame to each other with Scotrail denying existence of the train. LNER suggesting there was a bus but it wasn’t advertised, and this doesn’t help passengers who miss a connection due to the failure of another toc. VT suggesting the staff member was correct and so on.
This sort of thing happens to multiple people every single day and TOCs are still allowed to get away with it.

I expect the usual replies from the usual suspects suggesting that all railway employees are considered gods and can do no wrong and I expect the usual suspects to pity them but here we see yet another example of rules being broken and the passenger being the one to suffer.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

t_star2001uk

Member
Joined
23 Aug 2011
Messages
723
I know this wont help now but both of these trains are shown as running tomorrow (03/01/19). Is there a small chance that your friend made a mistake with the dates at the point of booking...
 

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
4,622
No. The tickets are for today.
The trains have been removed from the timetable since the contract was made when the tickets were bought. (I’ve seen the tickets).
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
There were reports of some retailers selling tickets for Christmas Day and Boxing Day as the timetables hadn't been entered correctly - but that would be walk-ups, so it seems very odd that an Advance quota was released for a train that was never going to run.

As a minimum a refund is due because the train on the ticket was cancelled (never existed).
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
The refund is due from the retailer from whom the ticket was purchased. They will be able to establish that the trains in question did not run (the first one is the only one that matters), which is the only matter of fact that needs to be established for a fee-free refund of the fare to be due.

Had she travelled on the next LNER train, whenever that was, Delay Repay would have been due based on the booked vs. actual arrival time.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
4,622
To question the potential for a mix up of dates is perfectly justified by the way. I appreciate that reply but have confirmed this isn’t the case.
 

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
4,622
The refund is due from the retailer from whom the ticket was purchased. They will be able to establish that the trains in question did not run (the first one is the only one that matters), which is the only matter of fact that needs to be established for a fee-free refund of the fare to be due.

Had she travelled, Delay Repay would have been due based on the booked vs. actual arrival time.

She made her own way from Ayr to Glasgow as there were no Scotrail trains from Ayr despite her having an itinerary and the station was closed with no advice as to what to do. With seemingly no possible way to get to Peterborough without buying a new ticket (an anytime fare perhaps, though it is a bank holiday there so I’m not sure) she made her own way back to Ayr again where she can stay tonight.
 

jamesst

Member
Joined
4 May 2011
Messages
1,114
Location
Merseyside
If they're definitely valid for today then I'd suggest possibly some late alterations have been put in at a later date after your friend purchased the tickets, possibly related to Christmas schedules?
No great comfort I know but make sure your friend keeps all items dated today
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Mag_seven

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
1 Sep 2014
Messages
9,994
Location
here to eternity
There were reports of some retailers selling tickets for Christmas Day and Boxing Day as the timetables hadn't been entered correctly - but that would be walk-ups, so it seems very odd that an Advance quota was released for a train that was never going to run.

As a minimum a refund is due because the train on the ticket was cancelled (never existed).

Its a bank holiday in Scotland today which would explain the lack of services - that does not diminish the rights of the consumer here however who has an itinerary that the TOCs should honour.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Its a bank holiday in Scotland today which would explain the lack of services - that does not diminish the rights of the consumer here however who has an itinerary that the TOCs should honour.

I suspect the issue may well have occurred by way of LNER (an English TOC) forgetting that Scotland has different public holidays than England when creating the quotas.
 

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
4,622
There was I’m told a bus, LNER say there was a bus, but vt staff at Glasgow (no Scotrail staff there at that time) knew nothing about a bus and the train/rrb was simply not on the departure boards at Glasgow. Of course this doesn’t help anyway if a connection is missed due to another cancelled service that the passenger has an itinerary for.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
The non-existence (effectively cancellation) of the first train on the ticket/itinerary is sufficient for a refund to be due.

That might of course not be much of a consolation if a walk-up has to be purchased for tomorrow.

Regarding this alleged bus, it doesn't show on either RTT or brtimes.com.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
4,622
If they're definitely valid for today then I'd suggest possibly some late alterations have been put in at a later date after your friend purchased the tickets, possibly related to Christmas schedules?
No great comfort I know but make sure your friend keeps all items dated today

Yes, likely so. It’s a shame that multiple TOCs have not had either the correct information, knowledge, training to deal with this. She would have been happy to get home even a few hours later than planned but it has been put across to her that she cannot travel on another toc without purchasing another ticket so in a panic (and by all accounts in tears) she returned to where she can stay tonight. It would be good if Scotrail and LNER would honour the tickets on the same services tomorrow but it’s unlikely they’ll see that as sensible.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I think they've definitely failed on "any TOC will if it reasonably can assist" bit. ScotRail could have assisted by passing it to Edinburgh where another LNER service could have been used, and Delay Repay claimed for the late arrival.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
17,867
Location
Airedale
I suspect the issue may well have occurred by way of LNER (an English TOC) forgetting that Scotland has different public holidays than England when creating the quotas.

Surely the only Advance quota is that on LNER? They should have known (I hope) that their one GLC-EDB train wasn't running.
Poor customer service anyway: IMO the traveller should have been advised to take the first available service from either Glasgow station to Edinburgh, leaving the onward journey to LNER to sort. If they had had to buy a ticket for this part, then LNER should have refunded that.
(Sorry, Bletchleyite's next post covers the point)
 

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
4,622
I think they've definitely failed on "any TOC will if it reasonably can assist" bit. ScotRail could have assisted by passing it to Edinburgh where another LNER service could have been used, and Delay Repay claimed for the late arrival.

Agreed. I would expect most XC guards to have allowed it realistically but I’d say Scotrail should have done so without question given they alstarted the farce.
Sadly due to the times she didn’t phone me at the time. Whilst I don’t mind for a friend or indeed anyone I don’t see why I should have to constantly give out the correct advice when ‘the railway’ gives out the wrong advice.

I do agree with the earlier points that passengers get it wrong a lot too. And there is no doubt that passengers booking the wrong date happens several orders of magnitude more than this type of mess. As for having never seen it before. I have a ticket booked for this weekend showing a similar thing. Luckily I know about this and have managed to adjust plans but there will be people who don’t. The result is LNER providing lots of taxis or if they deny responsibility lots of people stranded in London overnight.
 

cactustwirly

Established Member
Joined
10 Apr 2013
Messages
7,447
Location
UK
Dare I say, then the OP's friend could take LNER/trainline to court over this, and claim reasonable expenses for travel from Ayr etc.
 

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
4,622
Dare I say, then the OP's friend could take LNER/trainline to court over this, and claim reasonable expenses for travel from Ayr etc.
I’m not sure that this would be fair.
LNER were given no opportunity to do anything about it as they were unaware there was an issue. Trainline provides tickets for services that were in the timetable at the time the booking was made. (I suppose it could be argued that they would have benefited from letting her know that BOTH her trains no longer existed but I’m not sure how they implement this)
The Scotrail Service was cancelled first causing them to have to make their own way to Glasgow. It was VT staff that gave the poor advice suggesting the 0648 didn’t exist and there was no way they could get another TOC without purchasing a new ticket. Unfortunately as with most people, she doesn’t pay a lot of attention to the difference between TOCs and retailers and as such didn’t think to contact LNER at the time and wasn’t told to do so by anyone. After essentially being turned away by the station she made her own way back to Ayr as she has a place to stay there tonight.
 

Clarence Yard

Established Member
Joined
18 Dec 2014
Messages
2,461
This is something the industry needs to get a grip on. The problem is the late uploading of timetable information - for the reasons we are all well aware of - and retailers taking the LTP timetable for that date in the system as gospel and booking people on them. Subsequently the changes are uploaded and the poor punters are then left wondering what is going on when they rock up for their train.

It would seem that the 0648 would have been a valid train when the booking was made as I believe none of the relevant new year changes were in the system then. What the industry needs to do is have a system that automatically flags up to the punter when a significant change has been made to their booked train, well before the date of travel.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
But this wasn't of course just a late timetable upload - someone created a quota against a train that was never going to run - otherwise the Advance would not have been sold.
 

Mag_seven

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
1 Sep 2014
Messages
9,994
Location
here to eternity
What the industry needs to do is have a system that automatically flags up to the punter when a significant change has been made to their booked train, well before the date of travel.

I would also suggest that the industry needs to get back to Informed Traveller Timescales of TT lockdown 12 weeks out. How long has it been now that the industry has not been required to comply with this?
 
Last edited:

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,224
Location
Bolton
Network Rail open data makes clear that her service was indeed cancelled this morning, along with all services from Ayr to Glasgow Central before the 0829.

I think ScotRail usually operate a Sunday service on 2nd January, so it sounds like they didn't upload the correct timetable data to me.

Screenshot_20190102-145348_Chrome.jpg

LNER amended the schedule of the 0648 Glasgow Central to London KX today, it began it's journey at Edinburgh as the 0800.
 

Clarence Yard

Established Member
Joined
18 Dec 2014
Messages
2,461
In reply to Bletchleyite, exactly right but the base quotas would have been set on the train via the LTP timetable.

If you don’t set your quotas to nil on LTP and then only open them up at T-12, retailers will sell on the LTP base quotas and for trains well past 12 weeks in advance too.

What LNER should have done was to nil quota all their likely affected days/trains when the base timetable was uploaded and open the quotas up when they were in a position to do so.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,224
Location
Bolton
But this wasn't of course just a late timetable upload - someone created a quota against a train that was never going to run - otherwise the Advance would not have been sold.
Not quite! 1E06 is still running. They just amended it so it didn't serve Glasgow Central.
 

Martin66

Member
Joined
3 Mar 2016
Messages
105
Location
Newcastle upon Tyne
I know this wont help now but both of these trains are shown as running tomorrow (03/01/19). Is there a small chance that your friend made a mistake with the dates at the point of booking...
She posted a copy of her ticket on LNER twitter. Shurely if she missed her connection at Glasgow due to the fault of the railway she should be able to travel on the next LNER service from Glasgow ie 0648 tomorrow?

Dv4iROEXgAAEmBn.jpg
 

Joe Paxton

Established Member
Joined
12 Jan 2017
Messages
2,453
Just saying, and it doesn't alter the basic point in any way, but wasn't the pictured ticket issued on 24th December at 08.46? Whatever, I'd have been furious in the situation described!

That's the date & time it was printed (i.e. collected), not the date & time it was bought.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top