GN Class 717

[Crossforth]

Anyone know which two 717 were down at Dollands Moor today?

 

[Cletus]

Anyone know which two 717 were down at Dollands Moor today?

When I passed by on Sunday, there were a lot more than two, unfortunately I couldn't id any of them

 

[aswilliamsuk]

I passed Dollands Moor on a Eurostar back to StP on Monday morning and I'm sure I counted four. Unless my eyes were deceiving me one of them was 017.

/adam

 

[BowesRanger]

Saw one these at Bowes Park at 1.15 today. Heading north up the loop, hopefully that means driver training?

 

[Class315]

Saw one these at Bowes Park at 1.15 today. Heading north up the loop, hopefully that means driver training?

Yes, 005 is doing the circuit for those doing brake handling and familirisation stopping in the Northern City Line.

 

[Class315]

I passed Dollands Moor on a Eurostar back to StP on Monday morning and I'm sure I counted four. Unless my eyes were deceiving me one of them was 017.

/adam

017 is sitting within Ferme Park. I’m not sure on the exact numbers that have gone into warm storage. But i think four is the right number.

 

[ainsworth74]

Is anyone able to advise if any of these are in service today? I know they've been out and about during week in passenger service but at weekends?

 

[BowesRanger]

I didn't think any had been in service yet. Just testing and driver training

 

[03_179]

Only been out in driver training, testing and mileage accumulation.

Jan 19 earliest Passenger services.

 

[ainsworth74]

Huh, I was under the impression that some had been in passenger service! Thanks all anyway.

 

[jellybaby]

Huh, I was under the impression that some had been in passenger service! Thanks all anyway.

I think they have. On a Friday non-stop from Moorgate to Gordon Hill.

 

[Fred26]

I think they have. On a Friday non-stop from Moorgate to Gordon Hill.

They've stopped that. Didn't last long.

 

[simple simon]

I think it was only one or two, just to meet a contractual arrangement saying that the trains would enter service by a certain date.

Whats annoying is that on the Fridays they actually ran RTT showed the trains as being in 'not in passenger service' Moorgate - Finsbury Pk and 'in passenger service' Finsbury Pk - Gordon Hill, but the train did not stop at Finsbury Park!!!!!!!!! Guess where I was waiting to board it.

Had I known that the stations were to be re-branded away from NSE I would have tried to at least film one at Moorgate - instead of trying to ride them.

 

[BlyRF]

I know the majority of these trains have been delivered but any news as to when they will formally begin stopping services?

 

[jon0844]

A date has been mentioned above. Hopefully early January. No point rushing and having situations where a relief driver can't sign a 717 and you get lots of rostering issues.

 

[BowesRanger]

Back to work today, usual train cancelled due to broken down unit.

Any new news on the 717s?

 

[choochoochoo]

Back to work today, usual train cancelled due to broken down unit.

Any new news on the 717s?

Don't think they'll be in service this month. Still lots to be signed off before they'll be allowed to operate with passengers I think.

 

[Failed Unit]

Back to work today, usual train cancelled due to broken down unit.

Any new news on the 717s?

The 717s are unlikely to improve performance. (Source Modern Railways)

GTR 313 (great northern)
MTIN P7 2018-19 14264
MTIN MAA P7 2018-19 15100
MAA P7 2017-18 11851.

Compare this to
GTR 700 (great northern)
MTIN P7 2018-19 11283
MTIN MAA P7 2018-19 8308
MAA P7 2017- 4210

So the 313 is still more reliable than the 700 (which is the closest we can compare it to and still the least reliable train in GTRs fleet).

Yes I know the 700s and 717s will improve. But they are not going to be the quick fix that people hope. Things will get worse before they improve in terms of reliability. It is not just the timetable change that has shafted great northern.

 

[daniel1234321]

There are 6 at Ferme Park at the moment, 012 and 017 are definitely two of them. It would appear they've stopped driver training now as no Moorgate Gordon Hill runs have run in the last few weeks (they are all marked as runs as required on RTT). Either that or high staff absence so no spare drivers to fill in for those on training. I expect in service sometime in February, Siemens and GTR focusing on the refit of 700s and timetable bedding at the moment. 22 of 25 have been delivered now with the final three expected by the end of January.

 

[daniel1234321]

Don't think they'll be in service this month. Still lots to be signed off before they'll be allowed to operate with passengers I think.

Defo not in service this month, most likely early Feb if then, not top of GTR's priority list.

 

[petersi]

If I got this right
The programme to introduce these trains is on hold
not a priority
No date for programme to be restarted
so no date for introduction

 

[BowesRanger]

If I got this right
The programme to introduce these trains is on hold
not a priority
No date for programme to be restarted
so no date for introduction

Well that's annoying...

 

[Failed Unit]

If I got this right
The programme to introduce these trains is on hold
not a priority
No date for programme to be restarted
so no date for introduction

Is this a bad thing? Surely they should be focusing on delivering the full timetable 7 days per week. The 313s are maybe old. But they work. (Ie they fail less than the 700s).

 

[Emblematic]

Is this a bad thing? Surely they should be focusing on delivering the full timetable 7 days per week. The 313s are maybe old. But they work. (Ie they fail less than the 700s).

Don't forget the MTINs are per unit - which for a 313 is only 3 cars. If you're on a six car train, you'll have two unit's worth of incidents, which is now worse than an 8/12 car 700, which is always going to be a single unit train. Also the 700s are likely still sliding down towards the bottom of the bathtub reliability curve, seems the 313s are still in the bottom of the bath, but it's best to retire them before the start to climb up the far end.
Expect the 717s MTINs to exceed the 700s very rapidly, partly due to the experience gained on the Desiro City platform, and more straightforwardly they are smaller trains, so just fewer parts to go wrong. And once the 717s reach 50% of the 313 MTINs, they are matching reliability for 6 car trains.

 

[Failed Unit]

Don't forget the MTINs are per unit - which for a 313 is only 3 cars. If you're on a six car train, you'll have two unit's worth of incidents, which is now worse than an 8/12 car 700, which is always going to be a single unit train. Also the 700s are likely still sliding down towards the bottom of the bathtub reliability curve, seems the 313s are still in the bottom of the bath, but it's best to retire them before the start to climb up the far end.
Expect the 717s MTINs to exceed the 700s very rapidly, partly due to the experience gained on the Desiro City platform, and more straightforwardly they are smaller trains, so just fewer parts to go wrong. And once the 717s reach 50% of the 313 MTINs, they are matching reliability for 6 car trains.

Do you have any evidence to suggest the 717s will be better than the 700 or just hope? At least the single 313 can go out alone with no real issues. The only reason the 313s are getting worse is quiet rightly no-one is spending money on them.

A failed train is a failed train no matter how long it it, it blocks the line.

The 700 we were told would never fail before they were introduced, so forgive me if I am not expecting any improvement on reliability before 2020.

One thing that really concerns me is the turn around times on the 717s. Will they be walk to other end and go like the 313s are or will we need to wait for computers to reboot. If it is the later considering in the peak may trains inbounds are delaying the outbound things will get much worse.

 

[sprunt]

Do you have any evidence to suggest the 717s will be better than the 700 or just hope? At least the single 313 can go out alone with no real issues. The only reason the 313s are getting worse is quiet rightly no-one is spending money on them.

If the introduction of their replacements is undetermined, it's absolutely not right that no-one is spending money on them. It appears that they're going to remain in service indefinitely, so they need to be maintained as if that's the case.

 

[Failed Unit]

If the introduction of their replacements is undetermined, it's absolutely not right that no-one is spending money on them. It appears that they're going to remain in service indefinitely, so they need to be maintained as if that's the case.

Ok. I will put the post in another way. Yes maintenance will continue. My point was should we replace this part that will be good of 5 years at a cost of x or recondition the existing one a x/5. In the current situation I would expect tactical maintenance not strategic.

Look at the trains externally. But would you really expect anyone to invest in painting them even if they have an undetermined life span. That is really what I meant by not spending any money on them. Perhaps I should have said strategic investment is spent on then.

I would be the first to congratulate Hornsey depot for the improvement we have seen in reliablity since 2017

 

[petersi]

Is this a bad thing? Surely they should be focusing on delivering the full timetable 7 days per week. The 313s are maybe old. But they work. (Ie they fail less than the 700s).

The pain of introduction will have to happen at sometime
As a member of the public I do think how GTR have communicated about their introduction has been poor.
The 313’s for sometime now have not been a good passenger environment.
For some stations on the inner great northern passenger were told the better performance of 717 was required before they could have better rush hour services(ie what they had before May 2018)

 

[Failed Unit]

The pain of introduction will have to happen at sometime
As a member of the public I do think how GTR have communicated about their introduction has been poor.
The 313’s for sometime now have not been a good passenger environment.
For some stations on the inner great northern passenger were told the better performance of 717 was required before they could have better rush hour services(ie what they had before May 2018)

As a user I agree but it is typical of GTR. You will remember the 387 and 700 introductions were both late and caused problems so really we are just seeing business as usual from GTR. In fact perhaps they have learned from the last 2 introductions and that is why they are taking their time. Look what happened to London - Cambridge (stopping) with the introduction of the 700s. If only they had kept the 365s longer!

I hope the introduce the trains slowly.

As for getting the timetable back to pre May 2018 frequency I understand that will be December 2019 but I will be at Kings Cross to ask. They don’t need the full fleet to plug the gaps. I understand an extra 3 sets should suffice.

The thing I am looking forward to on the 717s is hopefully more comfortable crush loading. We will see. But reliability I expect is a while away.

 

[jon0844]

At least the graffiti seems to have been removed from the 313. But reliability is getting worse and quite rapidly, with an increasing number of faults that have caused some pretty significant delays (and it seems most have impacted the Hertford Loop so perhaps weren't as widely reported on).

While almost all units are in 6 car formation, there are often swaps and shunts to shut out cabs with faults. There are other things like door faults, wiper faults and so on - and obviously Hornsey will still be doing maintenance, I expect they're more likely trying to patch up or take parts from elsewhere to keep things going than seek out replacement parts (most of which will likely need to be specially made).

Whether 313s are doing better than 700s now is almost immaterial because the reliability seems to be looking like it will fall off a cliff if they carry on for much longer.

The 717s can't come soon enough, but obviously they can't come until there's little to no chance of problems with drivers unable to operate them or else there will be disruption. Nobody will care if it's a train fault or a driver can't sign 'fault'.

Edit: For crush loading, the 717s will be excellent. There's so much more room it's crazy. There's more priority seating, and plenty of room at the front and back for bags (or buggies, bikes or whatever). I really can't see people missing the 313s EVEN IF they may have to stand when they didn't before.

Frankly, in the peak few people get the chance of a seat. And what they want is to be able to breathe and have a chance of getting on and off the train.

Plus, off peak there will be stacks of seating most of the time.