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35 Minute Frequency

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Llandudno

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Arriva have announced some bus service changes in North Wales from the end of January.

Perhaps the most puzzling is the introduction of a 35 minute frequency on route 13 between Llandudno and Prestatyn! Not a cat in hells chance of remembering when the buses run, you need a smartphone with you.

Are there any other silly non clockface frequencies that anyone can think of?

Other changes include:
Virtually all daytime Arriva buses will no longer operate via Llandudno Junction Station, perhaps now that Arriva are not running the Welsh trains they are less interested in rail/bus integration?

Route X5 Llandudno to Bangor all Sunday buses withdrawn.

Route 5 will still operate hourly, but no doubt in the summer will be full and standing, leaving passengers behind and thereby be running late!
 
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Busaholic

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Arriva have announced some bus service changes in North Wales from the end of January.

Perhaps the most puzzling is the introduction of a 35 minute frequency on route 13 between Llandudno and Prestatyn! Not a cat in hells chance of remembering when the buses run, you need a smartphone with you.

Are there any other silly non clockface frequencies that anyone can think of?

Other changes include:
Virtually all daytime Arriva buses will no longer operate via Llandudno Junction Station, perhaps now that Arriva are not running the Welsh trains they are less interested in rail/bus integration?

Route X5 Llandudno to Bangor all Sunday buses withdrawn.

Route 5 will still operate hourly, but no doubt in the summer will be full and standing, leaving passengers behind and thereby be running late!
London Transport used to be quite keen for a time on 24 minute headways, on the principle that, after two hours, you'd revert to the original clockface, assuming you remembered whether it was an 'odd' or 'even' hour! They took this a stage further by introducing 36 (rather than 35) minute headways too, which I always felt was stretching that principle way too far! There was also route 146, which couldn't quite manage an hourly frequency with one bus operation after opo so became, iirc, a 64 minute headway, with gaps for meal reliefs!
 

goldisgood

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Arriva have announced some bus service changes in North Wales from the end of January.

Perhaps the most puzzling is the introduction of a 35 minute frequency on route 13 between Llandudno and Prestatyn! Not a cat in hells chance of remembering when the buses run, you need a smartphone with you.

Are there any other silly non clockface frequencies that anyone can think of?

Other changes include:
Virtually all daytime Arriva buses will no longer operate via Llandudno Junction Station, perhaps now that Arriva are not running the Welsh trains they are less interested in rail/bus integration?

Route X5 Llandudno to Bangor all Sunday buses withdrawn.

Route 5 will still operate hourly, but no doubt in the summer will be full and standing, leaving passengers behind and thereby be running late!
Maybe they'll put some more buses on in the summer, having an enhanced summer service like they do elsewhere?
 

Ianno87

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The former combined 192/194 between Coventry and Solihull used to run every 70 minutes (so it could be run with two buses, not three)

Before it became standardised as the 27 in 2006, the 17/27 combined ran every 12 minutes, alternating... so the "unique" bits of each route got a bus every 24 minutes.
 

nesw

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London has recently seen the reintroduction of non-clockface times to some services, as a result of economies and congestion. TfL routes are classed as frequent where there’s at least 5 buses per hour (14 minute Headway minimum). There’s now examples of services running every 15/16 mins. , 21 minutes etc. Londonbusroutes.net has the details.
Nationwide, It’s also become more common for times to be non clockface during the contra peaks or peaks, the idea being to give extra running or recovery time to allow for congestion . It also means that the PVR (Peak Vehicle Requirement) doesn’t rise and therefore cost neutral.
 

A Challenge

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Regarding none clockface timetables:
Route 1 on Birmingham has a non clockface timetable on Sunday the Northern Most end of the route through Edgbaston between Bristol Road and Five Ways sees, 20 minute gap, then 40 minute gap , then 20 minute gap, then 40 minute gap repeating like this till 6PM when it becomes hourly. Route 1A operates along the southern end of the route hourly but goes to the QE Hospital - rather than Five Ways.
The MAX 34 (Guildford to Camberley) is the same, with the MAX 35, so through Kingfield Green and Sutton Green. The 520 (Aldershot to Guildford, but there are no through services) is just strange, Tuesday and Friday the same (one bus Aldershot to Normandy and another Tongham to Guildford), but Wednesdays different (two busses Aldershot to Normandy and one Aldershot to Woking). Try explaining the logic behind this!
 
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Seems to be a pattern developing of 30 minute frequencies reducing to 35 minutes after 3pm. Stagecoach in Chesterfield certainly have a number of routes where the clockface timetable vanishes for the afternoon rush hour to become an unusual interval pattern.
 

Jordan Adam

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First Aberdeen's old Service 11 from Seaton to Craigiebuckler (withdrawn in 2006) used to run "Every 16 Minutes". The reason for this was because a trip end to end was 31 minutes. Having it run Every 15 Minutes would require an additional bus and excessive layover.

In more recent years there was a 25 which ran from the City Centre to Sheddocksley on a 35 Minute frequency, again for similar reasons.
 

tbtc

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First's 95 (Sheffield City Centre - Walkley) is every eleven minutes for most of Saturday (every ten minutes on weekdays).

When the cross city 85 was chopped in two (it used to run half hourly, co-ordinating with the Stagecoach 86 to provide a fifteen minute service over most of the route) the northern end retained a half hourly frequency but the service south of the city was every thirty five minutes (half hour drive, five minute wait, half hour drive, five minutes wait), which was obviously terrible for co-ordinating with the Stagecoach 86.

There are also some "clock face" timetables around here that aren't at even intervals >>

Stagecoach's 27 in Barnsley is every 24/36 minutes from Barnsley to Grimethorpe then (an even) every half hour south of Grimethorpe (one of the two departures per hour waits a little longer in Grimethorpe so that the service co-ordinates as part of a twelve minute frequency from Barnsley to Grimethorpe (six minutes as far as Cudworth).

The Stagecoach SuperTramLink service from MIddlewood to Stocksbridge used to be every ten minutes to co-ordinate with the tram. Then it was changed into two services (clockwise and anticlockwise in Stocksbridge) but the off-peak tram frequency then changed to every twelve minutes, so the loop round Stocksbridge is now every 12/24/24 minutes in one direction and every 24/36 minutes in the other direction).

Meanwhile, not a bus, but the three TramTrain services an hour from Sheffield Cathedral to Rotherham Parkgate are xx00, xx:27 and xx:39 (to fit around the half hourly Sheffield - Rotherham - Doncaster train and the hourly Sheffield - Rotherham - Leeds train). Not easy to remember!

Also, seems to be mostly a West Yorkshire thing but First have a habit of running some services at 10-10-15-10-15 frequencies rather than every twelve minutes - but, again, a silly frequency but not a "non-clockface" one.
 

NorthernSpirit

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Also, seems to be mostly a West Yorkshire thing but First have a habit of running some services at 10-10-15-10-15 frequencies rather than every twelve minutes - but, again, a silly frequency but not a "non-clockface" one.

The Zest503 on Sundays went from, if I can remember, every 20 minutes to every 25 minutes leading to a very lopsided timetable. Why every 25 minutes though surely enough every 30 minutes would be just as good considering that the traffic at Salterhebble and at Ainley Top can get heavy (even on Sundays) with a good ample 15 minute layover time at either end.
 

gingerheid

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When I see that it almost always seems to be Arriva that does it... and the service never seems to last long.
 

tbtc

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The Zest503 on Sundays went from, if I can remember, every 20 minutes to every 25 minutes leading to a very lopsided timetable. Why every 25 minutes though surely enough every 30 minutes would be just as good considering that the traffic at Salterhebble and at Ainley Top can get heavy (even on Sundays) with a good ample 15 minute layover time at either end.

Agreed - I've argued elsewhere that the increased frequency for the First X78 (Sheffield - Doncaster) from every fifteen minutes to every twelve might actually be a negative for passengers (I can remember a fifteen minutes frequency easier than a twelve minute one). Plus a twelve minute frequency doesn't co-ordinate with much. I guess the same is true in West Yorkshire - a half hourly service can at least co-ordinate with something but a twenty five minute one will soon mean two buses bunching together on a common section of the route.
 

Andyh82

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Arriva have announced some bus service changes in North Wales from the end of January.

Perhaps the most puzzling is the introduction of a 35 minute frequency on route 13 between Llandudno and Prestatyn! Not a cat in hells chance of remembering when the buses run, you need a smartphone with you.

Are there any other silly non clockface frequencies that anyone can think of?

Other changes include:
Virtually all daytime Arriva buses will no longer operate via Llandudno Junction Station, perhaps now that Arriva are not running the Welsh trains they are less interested in rail/bus integration?

Route X5 Llandudno to Bangor all Sunday buses withdrawn.

Route 5 will still operate hourly, but no doubt in the summer will be full and standing, leaving passengers behind and thereby be running late!

I’m sure the 13 used to have a strange frequency before, maybe every 40 minutes?
 

mmh

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Thanks for posting that, I hadn't heard about the changes. They're quite annoying, I use the X5 from Deganwy to Dwygyfylchi fairly often, and now not only will the X5 not run on Sundays but it won't serve Dwygyfylchi at all (except a couple of commute time journeys)

I can sort of understand the logic behind perhaps wanting to speed up the supposed express one, but it doesn't really make much difference to the end to end journey time.
 

Tetchytyke

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Go North East services 4 and 53 have frequencies of every 11 minutes...

The 4 is a brilliant example of it. Some headways are 10 minutes, some are 11 and some are 12. I'm sure it makes sense in somebody's head. It's a way of squeezing the PVR down I guess.

Stagecoach have the 6/7 where one is hourly and the other is teice hourly, but they combine to every 20 minutes on common sections of route. Away from those, the 7 has a 20 headway then a 40 headway.

I would mention the bus from Berwick to Lindisfarne but that's cheating really.
 

Yorks185

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Back in i think around 2006-2007 First Chester ran the Plas Newton route Every 9 Minutes,before reducing it a year or 2 later to Every 11 Minutes (these days Stagecoach run it Every 30 Minutes,less frequent but at least its clock faced)

More recently,First WY have started to run timetables where a couple of services (576 & 72 are the only ones to do it at the moment i think) run every 10 minutes,then once every 2 hours has a gap of 15 minutes then back to every 10 Minutes for another 2 hours.

Various long term roadworks in Calderdale also means that some services no longer have a clockface timetable.Route 901 (Huddersfield - Hebden Br) got reduced from Hourly to Every 70-75 Minutes,Route 503 (Huddersfield - Halifax) has had its sunday service reduced to every 25 Minutes from Every 20,now the roadworks seem to be completed at Salterhebble the 503 might be restored to every 20 minutes soon?.

Route X58 (Halifax - Rochdale) got reduced from hourly to either Every 65/70/75 Mins (think this to do with larger vehicles being allocated,meaning it could no longer interwork with Halifax local services)
 

43055

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Arriva have announced some bus service changes in North Wales from the end of January.

Perhaps the most puzzling is the introduction of a 35 minute frequency on route 13 between Llandudno and Prestatyn! Not a cat in hells chance of remembering when the buses run, you need a smartphone with you.

Are there any other silly non clockface frequencies that anyone can think of?

Other changes include:
Virtually all daytime Arriva buses will no longer operate via Llandudno Junction Station, perhaps now that Arriva are not running the Welsh trains they are less interested in rail/bus integration?

Route X5 Llandudno to Bangor all Sunday buses withdrawn.

Route 5 will still operate hourly, but no doubt in the summer will be full and standing, leaving passengers behind and thereby be running late!

Thanks for posting that, I hadn't heard about the changes. They're quite annoying, I use the X5 from Deganwy to Dwygyfylchi fairly often, and now not only will the X5 not run on Sundays but it won't serve Dwygyfylchi at all (except a couple of commute time journeys)

I can sort of understand the logic behind perhaps wanting to speed up the supposed express one, but it doesn't really make much difference to the end to end journey time.
The most amazing part is there is no mention of the withdrawal of the X5 on Sundays on the website!

I’m sure the 13 used to have a strange frequency before, maybe every 40 minutes?
Yes its currently every 40 minuets which at least the same times come around every 2 hours.
Seems to be a pattern developing of 30 minute frequencies reducing to 35 minutes after 3pm. Stagecoach in Chesterfield certainly have a number of routes where the clockface timetable vanishes for the afternoon rush hour to become an unusual interval pattern.
My local route does that and it is good as it helps with removing delays, as the bus that I sometimes get home has a extra 10 minuets before it leaves, that may have happened in the day while trying to keep a even frequency in rush hour.
 

Darklord8899

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I've seen non-clock face frequencies on services using just one vehicle, so you end up with things like:

Every 40 minutes
Every 45 minutes
Every 50 minutes

Also seen an every 15 minutes service leaving a major timing point at:
03 18 33 48

Sadly can't remember service numbers
 

Statto

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Back in i think around 2006-2007 First Chester ran the Plas Newton route Every 9 Minutes,before reducing it a year or 2 later to Every 11 Minutes (these days Stagecoach run it Every 30 Minutes,less frequent but at least its clock faced)

More recently,First WY have started to run timetables where a couple of services (576 & 72 are the only ones to do it at the moment i think) run every 10 minutes,then once every 2 hours has a gap of 15 minutes then back to every 10 Minutes for another 2 hours.

Various long term roadworks in Calderdale also means that some services no longer have a clockface timetable.Route 901 (Huddersfield - Hebden Br) got reduced from Hourly to Every 70-75 Minutes,Route 503 (Huddersfield - Halifax) has had its sunday service reduced to every 25 Minutes from Every 20,now the roadworks seem to be completed at Salterhebble the 503 might be restored to every 20 minutes soon?.

Route X58 (Halifax - Rochdale) got reduced from hourly to either Every 65/70/75 Mins (think this to do with larger vehicles being allocated,meaning it could no longer interwork with Halifax local services)

Chester had a few routes with weird frequencies i remember the 53 being every 9 to 11 minutes, the Blacon Circulars [1/1E/2/2A/2E]were 4 to 10 minutes, the 8 was every 8 to 12 minutes.

Merseyside the 106 when it was Moreton-Liscard Circular used to be every 60 minutes, however turnround timings were quite tight with resulting reliability issues so the frequency was reduced to every 65 minutes, even though it's been truncated to a Wallasey circular it's now every 70 minutes.
 

Simon75

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First Potteries 3/3A Every 10 minutes Hanley-Kidsgrove, with the 3 every 30minutes to Crewe, 3A every 30 minutes to Talke Pits/Newcastle. The other 2 3A joureys, terminate at Butt Lane. This was done when changes around March 2017 reduced the 3 to Crewe from 20 to 30 minuites, and 3A (was also called the 3 at the time , just to confuse things) to Talke Pits was reduced from 20 to 30 minutes
 

Busaholic

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A general observation here. Although clockface intervals are desirable if at all possible, it is far better to have a bus every 35, or even every 38 or whatever, minutes if the service can continue to operate commercially on that frequency than to introduce an extra bus in order to achieve a 30 minute frequency and then the route gets withdrawn as loss-making. There are some 'purists' on here who'd disagree with that, but they are what I'd describe as 'armchair purists' i.e. not out there using the services concerned.
 

Darklord8899

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A general observation here. Although clockface intervals are desirable if at all possible, it is far better to have a bus every 35, or even every 38 or whatever, minutes if the service can continue to operate commercially on that frequency than to introduce an extra bus in order to achieve a 30 minute frequency and then the route gets withdrawn as loss-making. There are some 'purists' on here who'd disagree with that, but they are what I'd describe as 'armchair purists' i.e. not out there using the services concerned.

Agreed, I'd much rather see a service kept on an odd frequency than being made click face then withdrawn as "not viable"
 

Bletchleyite

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Seem to recall that the 582 Bolton to Leigh is every 8 minutes - not every 7/8. Mind you, it's that frequent, it isn't worth consulting a timetable!

I think with every 10 minutes or better there's little need for any timetable when it comes to buses (as bus operation is by its nature less precise than train operation, as there are far more variables), though with trains I will use a timetable at near enough any frequency. Walking short distances is very predictable time-wise indeed - you'll typically do a 5 minute walk within a few seconds of the same time each time. When I used to live in Hamburg I was precisely 6 minutes' walk from the U-Bahn, so could (and did) time leaving home to walk onto the platform just as the train arrived.

I do find Metrolink's long-running insistence on not providing a timetable quite poor. In particular, TfL's use of "frequent services" for buses less than every 15 minutes is really very poor - away from London that frequency would near-always show a proper timetable.
 

Busaholic

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I think with every 10 minutes or better there's little need for any timetable when it comes to buses (as bus operation is by its nature less precise than train operation, as there are far more variables), though with trains I will use a timetable at near enough any frequency. Walking short distances is very predictable time-wise indeed - you'll typically do a 5 minute walk within a few seconds of the same time each time. When I used to live in Hamburg I was precisely 6 minutes' walk from the U-Bahn, so could (and did) time leaving home to walk onto the platform just as the train arrived.

I do find Metrolink's long-running insistence on not providing a timetable quite poor. In particular, TfL's use of "frequent services" for buses less than every 15 minutes is really very poor - away from London that frequency would near-always show a proper timetable.
I'm not going to defend TfL's current criterion for what constitutes a frequent service, but would just point out that until recent, more straitened times it was ten minute headway or less which fitted that particular bill for them. Thin end of the wedge, perhaps?
 

Busaholic

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True, but I would rather have an hourly clockface frequency which would be extremely reliable due to an additional 15 minutes of layover than a 45 minute frequency.
A counter argument would run something like this. If a route ran between 9 a.m. and 6 p.m. from one terminus, that's 13 journeys at 45 minute intervals as against 10 at 60 min intervals with the same crew resources i.e. a more productive use of the driver's time, and the possibility, on the face of it, of an extra 30% in fare revenue, which could be crucial for profitability. That alone could overrule the perceived desirability to some passengers of a clockface hourly service: actually, if I was a regular user of such a bus route I know I'd almost certainly prefer the extra journeys.
 

Statto

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A counter argument would run something like this. If a route ran between 9 a.m. and 6 p.m. from one terminus, that's 13 journeys at 45 minute intervals as against 10 at 60 min intervals with the same crew resources i.e. a more productive use of the driver's time, and the possibility, on the face of it, of an extra 30% in fare revenue, which could be crucial for profitability. That alone could overrule the perceived desirability to some passengers of a clockface hourly service: actually, if I was a regular user of such a bus route I know I'd almost certainly prefer the extra journeys.


Yep, before D-Reg it was quite common for drivers to have 20-30 minute layovers every trip, especially if there was a canteen at the terminus, nowadays companies are more concerned getting the bus to start the return journey asap even if it means odd frequencies.
 

Busaholic

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Yep, before D-Reg it was quite common for drivers to have 20-30 minute layovers every trip, especially if there was a canteen at the terminus, nowadays companies are more concerned getting the bus to start the return journey asap even if it means odd frequencies.
Being somewhat fossilised, I well remember the canteen at Well Hall Station in Eltham, S.E. London, provided by London Transport for the benefit of crews on bus services that terminated there. I think crews on the old 132 circular route run by Sidcup Garage also took meal reliefs there, as their buses ran nowhere near the garage. I know I was only a kid, but I do remember wondering why some buses seemed to spend an inordinate time seemingly abandoned, particularly at offpeak times. The 21A to Swanley and Farningham, in theory probably the most infrequent route to use the bus station, always seemed to be present, for instance.
 
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