[Hypothetical] TOC and TfL approach to offenders with non-UK addresses

[Fawkes Cat]

This point emerges from the discussion in https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/used-wrong-oyster-card.175332/. Essentially, a visitor to the UK had fallen foul of the rules for Oyster, and when challenged had given their hotel address: they wanted to know what would happen next.

The general tenor of our response was that we didn't really know. So I am launching this thread to see if we can come to an evidence-based consensus for maybe two scenarios when a non-UK traveller is caught in an irregularity:

1) Traveller provides the address (hotel, campsite, relative's UK home, AirBnB, etc) where they are staying
2) Traveller provides their permanent non-UK address

I can see that one answer is that when the railway look at the address, they will decide that there is no realistic chance of pursuing a penalty, and drop the matter. But I can also see - particularly in London, where foreign tourists are frequent users of the Underground - that to routinely not pursue non-UK travellers for irregularities would amount to a policy of free travel for tourists.

So (without breaking any confidences) does anyone know what TOCs and TfL actually do? Even if it turns out that none of us know, that should help us to give a straight answer ('don't know') in future.

 

[furlong]

The SRA had some clear views in respect of Penalty Fares:

an operator may not want to include certain stations for a number of reasons. For example, if the station:
...
serves a port or airport and is used by a large number of foreign visitors and people who do not often travel by train, making it undesirable to charge penalty fares to passengers from this station.
...
We expect authorised collectors to use discretion towards:
...
passengers who are not aware of the scheme because they ... are a foreign visitor who lives abroad

As the only published guidance on the matter, I would expect this to continue to be respected by train companies, and the reasoning should apply similarly to other ticketing irregularities.

 

[bionic]

Reading news stories over the years about foreign cars entering the London congestion zone or using the Dartford crossing without paying and the relevant authorities either not bothering to chase them up, or not having any legal recourse to make them pay if they can identify them, I'd suggest it's a similar situation on the railways. If a fare evader gives an address in, say France or China, what realistically can the companies do? They probably can't even check it's a real address and the costs involved in chasing it would far outweigh the slim chance they'll get a few quid out of the person. My guess is they just don't bother.

Has anyone on here been involved in this type of thing abroad?

 

[baz962]

I saw a program on tv a year or so ago and the traffic police here were stopping foreign plate hgv's . They were actually making them pay at the roadside for any offences , and holding them until they did. Maybe give btp similar power's. ( Hypothetical of course ).

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Thanks for all the replies so far

The SRA had some clear views in respect of Penalty Fares:

an operator may not want to include certain stations for a number of reasons. For example, if the station:
...
serves a port or airport and is used by a large number of foreign visitors and people who do not often travel by train, making it undesirable to charge penalty fares to passengers from this station.
...
We expect authorised collectors to use discretion towards:
...
passengers who are not aware of the scheme because they ... are a foreign visitor who lives abroad

As the only published guidance on the matter, I would expect this to continue to be respected by train companies, and the reasoning should apply similarly to other ticketing irregularities.

For future reference, what's the source of this, please?

 

[bspahh]

Thanks for all the replies so far

For future reference, what's the source of this, please?

The top hit for a Google search for "undesirable to charge penalty fares" is
https://www.appealservice.co.uk/Documents/SRA -Penalty-Fare-Policy-2002.pdf

 

[175mph]

I saw a program on tv a year or so ago and the traffic police here were stopping foreign plate hgv's . They were actually making them pay at the roadside for any offences , and holding them until they did. Maybe give btp similar power's. ( Hypothetical of course ).

I thought it was the French who usually do that, not us?

 

[baz962]

I thought it was the French who usually do that, not us?

We should tho .

 

[island]

I thought it was the French who usually do that, not us?

The gendarmes certainly have no compunctions about requiring immediate payment in cash for violations, and will keep your ID as security whilst you go and find an ATM.

 

[Surreytraveller]

So, what would a RPO do if they stopped someone, and that someone claimed to be homeless? Or claimed to be staying or living in a hotel, perhaps stating that although they're British, they actually live abroad?

 

[gray1404]

I saw a stupid case on Merseyrail whereby they stopped a Spanish guy who hardly spoke any English. They said his ticket was out of date by one day and he was unable to pay a £20 penalty fare. At this point the the 3 staff surrounded him in a corner. They asked for his address and when he started giving a Spanish address they were not happy. They then asked for the address he was staying at. He said he was staying with a friend just for a couple more days. They demanded to know that address. He didn't know it so they said that they would call his friend and if they could not get his address then they would call the police to deal with him. They also asked for ID but he said he didn't have any. The RPI was annoyed at that too.

 

[Snegianna]

So if a hotel/accommodation address is indeed provided. But the letter arrived after Check out date of the guest and is either binned by hotel/next guests or send back to the sender as "undelivered"? What the approach normally be ?

 

[Bensonby]

Ultimately, the only surefire way to ensure that the offender is dealt with is to arrest them and place them before a court. The power of arrest that a constable has would apply, but a “citizen arrest” power wouldn’t (s24a PACE) and I think it’s unlikely that the power of arrest under s5 of the Regulation of Railways Act would apply if they give an address but one that is abroad.

 

[Springs Branch]

So, what would a RPO do if they stopped someone, and that someone claimed to be homeless? Or claimed to be staying or living in a hotel, perhaps stating that although they're British, they actually live abroad?

Here's my own experience in this sort of situation - on a bus, not a train, but TfL nonetheless.

- I am British, but live abroad permanently.
- I generally know the ropes around TfL ticketing & have no need or inclination to fare-dodge.
- Last year my wife (who is Italian) & I were on holiday in UK and staying in south-west London.
- Most of our visit, we had used paper Day Travelcards, but one of the days we planned to make only one return local trip by bus. So I decided to use contactless.
- We had contactless credit & debit cards issued by our overseas bank, which had worked faultlessly at shops & supermarkets around England, Scotland & Wales for the past three weeks.
- But not on TfL - boarding our bus in Kingston upon Thames, the first card was declined by the reader, then the second.
- I was about to leave the bus to find a shop selling Oyster, but the driver impatiently waved us both on board.
- Five minutes later as we sat upstairs, inevitably, a TfL ticket inspector got on.
- I showed him our credit cards, told him the Oyster reader had declined them & the driver had let us on.
- He told us that overseas contactless cards are never accepted on TfL (not true). And that he could fine us if he wanted, but would let us off this time as we told him the driver had allowed us on.
- That was the end of it - I'm not sure he bothered asking the driver, certainly didn't attempt taking our details.

Not to say this would be the outcome with a different RPO, different circumstances (where an incorrect ticket had actually been purchased), or without me earnestly explaining we would be buying Oysters for our return trip.

 

[gray1404]

I am fairly sure that bus drivers can give permission for people to travel. One thing that has bothered we with TfL ticket checks is when they do them once you have got off the bus. It is different to a train station in that you are still on railway property. Expecting a customer who has ended their journey and exited the bus and is now on the public pavement to get their wallet etc out is wrong.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I am fairly sure that bus drivers can give permission for people to travel. One thing that has bothered we with TfL ticket checks is when they do them once you have got off the bus. It is different to a train station in that you are still on railway property. Expecting a customer who has ended their journey and exited the bus and is now on the public pavement to get their wallet etc out is wrong.

I'm surprised they do that, as surely it could be argued that its false imprisonment?

 

[gray1404]

I agree. I am happy to show my bus ticket while still on the bus but when I get off the bus and straight onto a public pavement that is different. Likewise I would be happy to show my train following a journey ticket while still on station property/land but not once I was on a public street.

 

[shredder1]

Reading news stories over the years about foreign cars entering the London congestion zone or using the Dartford crossing without paying and the relevant authorities either not bothering to chase them up, or not having any legal recourse to make them pay if they can identify them, I'd suggest it's a similar situation on the railways. If a fare evader gives an address in, say France or China, what realistically can the companies do? They probably can't even check it's a real address and the costs involved in chasing it would far outweigh the slim chance they'll get a few quid out of the person. My guess is they just don't bother.

Has anyone on here been involved in this type of thing abroad?

Yes I`ve had it a few times through not understanding the rules and not being able to work out how to buy a ticket, or not stamping a ticket on trams, they normally try to explain things to you and simply let it go. I was also charged an excess fare once, but didnt realise until I checked my bank balance when I returned to the UK.

 

[cuccir]

If they don't go for the giving up option, it'd be possible for TfL or a TOC to use the details provided on the day to prosecute someone. It'd then be up to the courts to try and chase them up for payment of a fine. If the TOC was bringing multiple cases to court in a day, the cost of the additional case would be relatively modest, so they might chose to do that.

My guess is that probably things would stop at that stage - the courts would not have the ability, in a cost efficient way at least, to chase people up for a small fine. Whether it would effect someone's ability to reenter the UK if that happened, I don't know,

 

[island]

I'm surprised they do that, as surely it could be argued that its false imprisonment?

False imprisonment is one of those terms thrown around a lot and covers a lot less than people think.

 

[Surreytraveller]

False imprisonment is one of those terms thrown around a lot and covers a lot less than people think.

Nothing to stop someone just walking away if a TfL official tries to detain you after you've got off a bus and are standing on the pavement, then?

 

[Bensonby]

False imprisonment is one of those terms thrown around a lot and covers a lot less than people think.

The interpretation is actually pretty broad: see the case of Walker v The Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis [2014]

 

[175mph]

Nothing to stop someone just walking away if a TfL official tries to detain you after you've got off a bus and are standing on the pavement, then?

I've seen pictures of them accompanied by the police, so I bet just walking away would see you rugby tackled to the floor by the police officer?

 

[island]

Nothing to stop someone just walking away if a TfL official tries to detain you after you've got off a bus and are standing on the pavement, then?

The TfL officials cannot detain you, but these operations are frequently accompanied by Met/BTP who certainly can.

 

[Surreytraveller]

The TfL officials cannot detain you, but these operations are frequently accompanied by Met/BTP who certainly can.

Can they really? For just stepping off a bus?

 

[Surreytraveller]

I've seen pictures of them accompanied by the police, so I bet just walking away would see you rugby tackled to the floor by the police officer?

A police officer doing that without reasonable cause would end up getting arrested themselves!

 

[island]

Can they really? For just stepping off a bus?

If you’re asked for a ticket by a ticket inspector and you make off without showing it, a nearby police officer may well stop you.

 

[Surreytraveller]

If you’re asked for a ticket by a ticket inspector and you make off without showing it, a nearby police officer may well stop you.

Or may not if you're in the street and the ticket inspector has no jurisdiction

 

[island]

You’ll find ticket inspectors have more “jurisdiction” than you think.

 

[Haywain]

Or may not if you're in the street and the ticket inspector has no jurisdiction

You might like to think that, but the police experience is that many of the people who choose to act in that way will also be committing other crimes or have warrants against them, so stopping them is quite beneficial.