GN Class 717

[43096]

Internally some doorways have a priority seat, inward facing
View attachment 57612 the corner of which (ouch!) is just at ‘knee/ shin’ level and if you enter and walk into saloon - whilst this adds seating capacity it prevents ‘ stand back’ space at door way - A tip up or perch seat may have been a better choice

The draught screens still don’t go down to floor level, I see, with the result that cold air whistles around people’s ankles - which is what the screens are meant to mitigate. Which bit of “draught screen” do GTR, DfT and Siemens not understand?

 

[adamedwards]

Very simple solution. Feet on seats! (Runs away quickly!)

 

[simple simon]

Internally some doorways have a priority seat, inward facing
View attachment 57612 the corner of which (ouch!) is just at ‘knee/ shin’ level and if you enter and walk into saloon - whilst this adds seating capacity it prevents ‘ stand back’ space at door way - A tip up or perch seat may have been a better choice

That will be a very cold location during station stops in the winter, wet on cold windy days... the people who used these seats will constantly have their toes trodden on as pass board / alight, they will also be tripped over.

Proper draught screens on the doors side of these seats will mitigate some of these issues.

 

[hwl]

The draught screens still don’t go down to floor level, I see, with the result that cold air whistles around people’s ankles - which is what the screens are meant to mitigate. Which bit of “draught screen” do GTR, DfT and Siemens not understand?

The bit that said nothing on the floor to make it easier to clean

 

[43096]

The bit that said nothing on the floor to make it easier to clean

That's OK then. Passenger comfort is last on the list. As usual.

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

That's OK then. Passenger comfort is last on the list. As usual.

Passengers prefer to pay less than be comfortable; as evidenced by the media whenever price rises are announced. A more complicated floor is a costlier floor to maintain.

 

[43096]

Passengers prefer to pay less than be comfortable; as evidenced by the media whenever price rises are announced. A more complicated floor is a costlier floor to maintain.

Go on then: what's the cost saving from not having to clean round the draught screens, and how much saving is that per passenger? Square root of diddly-squat, I bet!

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

Go on then: what's the cost saving from not having to clean round the draught screens, and how much saving is that per passenger? Square root of diddly-squat, I bet!

Easy to say that without being informed. Do it every time the trains are cleaned for the next 40 years, it'll add up to something tangible. If it was specified that the floor should be entirely void of connecting furniture, then it was for a reason, and the ignorant armchair brigade will have to live with it. It may be for cost, it may be for maintainability, it may be for safety.

 

[jon0844]

That's OK then. Passenger comfort is last on the list. As usual.

The doors aren't open that long, and it's not biting cold with arctic winds that much of the year. I really don't think it is that big a problem even with increased stops. I'm not tying to come over as an apologist here, but I really don't see the issue.

What I do see is late night 700 trains that are a total and utter disaster area. Drinks all over the floor (well you hope they're drinks and not other fluids). Then there's the rubbish (can people not find the bins?).

The ability to clean them quickly and easily means that for a lot of the time the trains look very clean. Yes maybe there's some dust here and there, but they are inspected by people that run fingers along the poster frames and so on, which could mean an assessment fail and a penalty to GTR as laid down by the DfT contract. As such, the trains are pretty clean IMO and you don't want to make changes that would create dirty trains all year around for the sake of a little bit of perceived comfort.

I always find that when it's really cold and wet, you dress for the conditions and it's actually quite horrible to step on to a boiling hot train carriage. For an Intercity train, you may well expect to get on, hang your coat up and want some comfort. On a commuter train, you likely sit as you are.

All my personal opinion, but given 313s will sit at stations with the doors open and not auto closing, I think people will prefer these. Take a 313 sitting at WGC or Hertford North on a freezing day, staying there for 10 minutes before starting in service with the doors open after someone boarded and didn't close them behind them (some do, most don't).

 

[APUK002]

The doors aren't open that long, and it's not biting cold with arctic winds that much of the year. I really don't think it is that big a problem even with increased stops. I'm not tying to come over as an apologist here, but I really don't see the issue.

What I do see is late night 700 trains that are a total and utter disaster area. Drinks all over the floor (well you hope they're drinks and not other fluids). Then there's the rubbish (can people not find the bins?).

The ability to clean them quickly and easily means that for a lot of the time the trains look very clean. Yes maybe there's some dust here and there, but they are inspected by people that run fingers along the poster frames and so on, which could mean an assessment fail and a penalty to GTR as laid down by the DfT contract. As such, the trains are pretty clean IMO and you don't want to make changes that would create dirty trains all year around for the sake of a little bit of perceived comfort.

I always find that when it's really cold and wet, you dress for the conditions and it's actually quite horrible to step on to a boiling hot train carriage. For an Intercity train, you may well expect to get on, hang your coat up and want some comfort. On a commuter train, you likely sit as you are.

All my personal opinion, but given 313s will sit at stations with the doors open and not auto closing, I think people will prefer these. Take a 313 sitting at WGC or Hertford North on a freezing day, staying there for 10 minutes before starting in service with the doors open after someone boarded and didn't close them behind them (some do, most don't).

That’s true,I like auto close doors 2, it saves the heating/a.c, stops rain etc coming in 2

 

[43096]

Easy to say that without being informed. Do it every time the trains are cleaned for the next 40 years, it'll add up to something tangible. If it was specified that the floor should be entirely void of connecting furniture, then it was for a reason, and the ignorant armchair brigade will have to live with it. It may be for cost, it may be for maintainability, it may be for safety.

You're spouting the usual MDTR* drivel. I note you don't mention passengers being a factor at all. Utterly, utterly predictable.

*MDTR = Modern Dynamic Thrusting Railway. An ironic term coined by the late Neil Morgan to describe the style-over-substance of the privatised railway.

 

[Aictos]

The doors aren't open that long, and it's not biting cold with arctic winds that much of the year. I really don't think it is that big a problem even with increased stops. I'm not tying to come over as an apologist here, but I really don't see the issue.

What I do see is late night 700 trains that are a total and utter disaster area. Drinks all over the floor (well you hope they're drinks and not other fluids). Then there's the rubbish (can people not find the bins?).

The ability to clean them quickly and easily means that for a lot of the time the trains look very clean. Yes maybe there's some dust here and there, but they are inspected by people that run fingers along the poster frames and so on, which could mean an assessment fail and a penalty to GTR as laid down by the DfT contract. As such, the trains are pretty clean IMO and you don't want to make changes that would create dirty trains all year around for the sake of a little bit of perceived comfort.

I always find that when it's really cold and wet, you dress for the conditions and it's actually quite horrible to step on to a boiling hot train carriage. For an Intercity train, you may well expect to get on, hang your coat up and want some comfort. On a commuter train, you likely sit as you are.

All my personal opinion, but given 313s will sit at stations with the doors open and not auto closing, I think people will prefer these. Take a 313 sitting at WGC or Hertford North on a freezing day, staying there for 10 minutes before starting in service with the doors open after someone boarded and didn't close them behind them (some do, most don't).

I agree, people here are just making a mountain out of a molehill as usual and that's saying that with common sense not just as a "apologist".

 

[samuelmorris]

The doors aren't open that long, and it's not biting cold with arctic winds that much of the year. I really don't think it is that big a problem even with increased stops. I'm not tying to come over as an apologist here, but I really don't see the issue.

What I do see is late night 700 trains that are a total and utter disaster area. Drinks all over the floor (well you hope they're drinks and not other fluids). Then there's the rubbish (can people not find the bins?).

The ability to clean them quickly and easily means that for a lot of the time the trains look very clean. Yes maybe there's some dust here and there, but they are inspected by people that run fingers along the poster frames and so on, which could mean an assessment fail and a penalty to GTR as laid down by the DfT contract. As such, the trains are pretty clean IMO and you don't want to make changes that would create dirty trains all year around for the sake of a little bit of perceived comfort.

I always find that when it's really cold and wet, you dress for the conditions and it's actually quite horrible to step on to a boiling hot train carriage. For an Intercity train, you may well expect to get on, hang your coat up and want some comfort. On a commuter train, you likely sit as you are.

All my personal opinion, but given 313s will sit at stations with the doors open and not auto closing, I think people will prefer these. Take a 313 sitting at WGC or Hertford North on a freezing day, staying there for 10 minutes before starting in service with the doors open after someone boarded and didn't close them behind them (some do, most don't).

That must have changed recently. My experience of 700s was they were largely vile and didn't look like they'd been cleaned inside for days, or outside ever since being manufactured.

 

[jon0844]

Outside is different - very brown! I'm yet to see one that looks worn out inside, even if feet on seats is common and that's where you'll see wear first.

 

[bramling]

That must have changed recently. My experience of 700s was they were largely vile and didn't look like they'd been cleaned inside for days, or outside ever since being manufactured.

I find them pretty vile inside. The “easy to clean” surface might be okay when the train is freshly off the depot. However for the rest of the time it just seems to attract and retain dirt, especially anything liquid, so that by the evening the trains are pretty disgusting. The lack of segregation just means such nasties seem to propagate further than would otherwise be the case.

Carpet is quite good at hiding stains and spills - whether this is a good thing is a value judgement, but so long as the carpet is replaced at a reasonably appropriate frequency then I’d say it’s probably preferable.

The 700s also seem to smell unpleasant - and this isn’t just a newness thing.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

According to a screenshot of another forum on Twitter, the first service will be 14th January.

https://twitter.com/cmpd_date/status/1081613537980661760

The link is not working.
Can you elaborate on this?

 

[absolutelymilk]

The link is not working.
Can you elaborate on this?

It isn't working for me now either, seems the person deleted their tweet. The tweet was a screenshot of another forum, (apparently wnxx according to others) where someone claimed fairly confidently that the first service would be 14th January - no more to elaborate on unfortunately!

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

You're spouting the usual MDTR* drivel. I note you don't mention passengers being a factor at all. Utterly, utterly predictable.

*MDTR = Modern Dynamic Thrusting Railway. An ironic term coined by the late Neil Morgan to describe the style-over-substance of the privatised railway.

You're of course welcome to do one of two things that don't entertain the MDTR, as you describe it: a) Run your own ROSCO/TOC b) Vote out the current Government and replace them with one who you think will do it better

 

[43096]

You're of course welcome to do one of two things that don't entertain the MDTR, as you describe it: a) Run your own ROSCO/TOC b) Vote out the current Government and replace them with one who you think will do it better

And/or c) use a car as much as possible to avoid the dross served up by much of the MDTR (there are some exceptions).

 

[samuelmorris]

I'll be honest, there are no journeys I've ever made where the quality of the rolling stock has determined whether or not I use the train. It's simply down to convenience of carrying luggage, fare prices and suitability of the timetable. Most of the long distance travel I do is at weekends, often bank holidays, which invalidates the GEML as it typically doesn't run on bank holidays. There are also parking charges to consider. Even if a 3-day trip would otherwise be break-even on price, three days' parking at my local station would bump the cost up considerably. One day's parking at Brentwood buys enough fuel to drive my car 80 miles. If there's two people travelling, forget it. As much as becoming a driver has been useful, it's really put a damper on how much I use the railways because the numbers just don't add up. It may be more effort and more dangerous, but if using rail doubles the cost of a journey (or more when travelling with 2+ people) and turns a 3 hour journey into 5, it isn't appropriate. I use the train for getting to London and to visit places during a single day that happen to be near a station.

If I had to visit somewhere very near to, say, Cuffley, I would still probably use the train whether a 313 or 717 would operate the service. If it wasn't near the station though, or there was a rail replacement bus, I'd probably drive.

 

[KC1]

I'll be honest, there are no journeys I've ever made where the quality of the rolling stock has determined whether or not I use the train

I have purposely let 2 uncomfortable 455s go to wait for a 377.

However, I would prefer to board a 313 than a 717.

 

[samuelmorris]

I have purposely let 2 uncomfortable 455s go to wait for a 377.

However, I would prefer to board a 313 than a 717.

That's different, I've done that too on numerous occasions but the prospect of using, in your example a 455, wouldn't stop me using rail to begin with.

 

[KC1]

For me, it all comes down to comfort, irrespective of ticket cost or age of the train, it’s the seats. With a 313, you actually feel like you are in the seat, it’s comfortable, with 717 (basing my experience on a 700), it’s only a matter of minutes before you’re adjusting your seating position because either back hurts or you get a numb bum.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

717 024 has been reported seen in France today and is therefore expected to be delivered tomorrow morning.

 

[jon0844]

A few possible diagrams to run the week after next? (Jan 21st)

 

[gm671]

Deleted

 

[tofl]

Speaking as someone who suffers from lower back problems I quite like a flatter more bench style seat because it means when one is perched on the edge because the person next to you is wide, one's spine is not distorted as it would be on a more bucket shaped seat.

 

[higthomas]

I can't see it happening by the 14th - Night time testing is still ongoing. Mon-Weds only this week from memory.

What is night time testing and why does it need to be done before they start? I presume that if they can run training during the day (as they have been today) they can run daytime passenger services?
(Assuming the first week or two will just be adding some extra daytime off peak services)

 

[jon0844]

The testing is when you find and deal with problems, which may take a while to resolve, so it's not much good having passengers on the train that would likely not want to be delayed or find their service cancelled altogether.

I've seen a 717 stop board being relocated today so the work is clearly ongoing.

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

"Night testing" is quite vague and without any further info it's difficult to make any guesses as to when the trains will enter service. Is this unit-specific testing or class-wide testing?