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Possible non-passenger use of Class 769s

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MikePJ

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Mod - Split from this thread.

ROG are leasing two 769s from Porterbrook for logistics traffic, according to Railway Gazette: https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...ltiple-units-ordered-for-postal-services.html

(Edit: this is RG catching up with RAIL's story from last week, it turns out, there's actually nothing new. RAIL's story came across more as "ROG intends" to me, but buried in the text it does say they've signed a contract for two trains).

UK: Leasing company Porterbrook is to supply Rail Operations Group with two Flex electro-diesel multiple-units equipped to carry postal and other just-in-time light freight traffic. Delivery is planned for early 2020.

The trains are to be rebuilt from Class 319 EMUs formerly used on Thameslink passenger services, and will be equipped with diesel engines to enable through running onto non-electrified routes. Porterbrook is undertaking similar Class 769 Flex conversions for passenger use by Northern, Transport for Wales and Great Western Railway.

There's also a little aside in that article that ROG's procurement of the Class 93s is taking a bit longer than they'd hoped, but they hope to sign the contract later in January.
 
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Jonny

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ROG are leasing two 769s from Porterbrook for logistics traffic, according to Railway Gazette: https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...ltiple-units-ordered-for-postal-services.html

(Edit: this is RG catching up with RAIL's story from last week, it turns out, there's actually nothing new. RAIL's story came across more as "ROG intends" to me, but buried in the text it does say they've signed a contract for two trains).

Am I right in thinking that the Royal Mail EMUs (Class 325) are to an equivalent design as the Class 319? Could they be similarly converted?
 

Emblematic

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They will be very similar, with the same traction package, so in theory yes. However even minor differences in the underframe configuration could complicate the conversion, and the 325 fleet is pretty small. So if RM were in the market for bimode units, fitting the necessary above-solebar mods to a passenger unit already in series conversion would likely be preferred. Not sure how much of any likely RM distribution network is off the electrified railway.
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
They will be very similar, with the same traction package, so in theory yes. However even minor differences in the underframe configuration could complicate the conversion, and the 325 fleet is pretty small. So if RM were in the market for bimode units, fitting the necessary above-solebar mods to a passenger unit already in series conversion would likely be preferred. Not sure how much of any likely RM distribution network is off the electrified railway.

From north to south are the locations of mail centres below:

Inverness (IV, HS, and KW)
Aberdeen (AB and ZE)
Edinburgh (EH, FK, KY, PH, DD, and TD)
Glasgow (G, KA, ML, and PA)
Newcastle-upon-Tyne (NE, SR, DH, DL, and TS)
Carlisle (CA and DG)
Leeds (LS, YO, HD, WF, BD, HG, and HX)
Preston (PR, FY, LA, and BB)
Sheffield (S, DN, LN, and HU)
Manchester (M, SK, BL, and OL)
Warrington (WA, WN, CW, and L postcodes)
Chester (CH, LL, and SY)
Nottingham (NG)
Wolverhampton (WV, TF, WS, ST, and DY)
Birmingham (B, WR, and HR)
Coventry (CV, LE, NN, and MK postcodes)
Peterborough (PE and CB postcodes)
Norwich (NR)
Hemel Hempstead (Home Counties Network - AL, LU, SG, WD, and EN postcodes)
Cardiff (CF, NP, and LD)
Swansea/Abertawe (SA)
Swindon (SN, RG, and OX postcodes)
Chelmsford (CM, CO, SS, and IP postcodes)
Romford (RM, IG, and E postcodes)
Greenford (UB, HA, NW, and W2-14 postcodes)
Mount Pleasant (EC, WC, N, and W1 postcodes)
Bristol (BS, GL, BA, and TA)
Exeter (EX and TQ)
Plymouth (PL)
Truro (TR)

The above are north of the mighty Thames. South of the Thames there are mail centres at:

Croydon (CR, BR, SE, and SM)
Hounslow (Jubilee MC - TW, KT, GU, and SW)
Medway (ME, CT, DA, and TN)
Gatwick (RH and BN)
Southampton (SO, SP (stands for Salisbury Plain), and PO)
Bournemouth (BH and DT)

For the mail centres south of the Thames, the converted 319s could be used in their original form on DC. North of the Thames, the diesel mode could be used between Peterborough and Norwich, Cardiff and Swansea, Sheffield to other neighbouring mail centres, Inverness and Aberdeen to other mail centres, and Exeter-Plymouth-Truro.

Most of the mail centres (assuming they are near railway lines) appear to be in electrified locations, therefore could be a good suggestion converting the 319s to carry second class parcels.
 

AndrewE

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Most of the mail centres (assuming they are near railway lines) appear to be in electrified locations, therefore could be a good suggestion converting the 319s to carry second class parcels.
The trouble is that a lot of these were built at a time when Royal Mail was deliberately turning its back on rail. Wembley and Warrington have sidings. How many others could even be connected by conveyors nowadays? Stafford has a purpose-built but abandoned mail platform, but RM has locked itself into air and road transport now...
 

AndyW33

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From north to south are the locations of mail centres below:

Coventry (CV, LE, NN, and MK postcodes)
Actually all these postcodes are handled at South Midlands Mail Centre, Swan Valley Way, Northampton. Coventry Mail Centre closed in 2010, but obviously there are still Delivery Offices in Coventry serving the city, just no centralised sorting operation. Unfortunately this Mail Centre is not rail-connected and is a couple of miles from any railway line.
 

kevjs

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The trouble is that a lot of these were built at a time when Royal Mail was deliberately turning its back on rail. Wembley and Warrington have sidings. How many others could even be connected by conveyors nowadays? Stafford has a purpose-built but abandoned mail platform, but RM has locked itself into air and road transport now...
The Preston one has it's own platform(s) at Preston railway station doesn't it?

Nottingham South is very near the Eastcroft sidings, but I don't think that's the one that does the sorting.
 

AndrewE

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The Preston one has it's own platform(s) at Preston railway station doesn't it?
Like Stafford then. Actually it looks as though they are still in the buildings next to the station, as at Stafford too. That will make it easier to go back to rail transport of mail...
 

Emblematic

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Nottingham Sorting Office is located just next to the MML in Beeston
And Mount Pleasant is sited directly over the Thameslink lines, unfortunately without the requisite infrastructure to link the two it is of no benefit, other than to highlight what could have been. I'm not suggesting that there would be any chance of directly connecting with the Thameslink core, but it's worth noting that there's virtually nothing left of the infrastructure in London that would allow a mail or parcels service to be reintroduced. Looking at Beeston, it appears that there was a rail connection to a mail dock, but that appears to have been lifted. It's doubtful a service will be considered without that.
 

InOban

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If they're planning to use them for parcels, remember that Parcelforce depots are often separate from the depots mentioned above.
 

MikePJ

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It's not just Royal Mail, remember. There are a lot of delivery companies catering to the online retail market that want to bring goods into urban areas quickly without getting stuck in traffic, and then doing last-mile delivery with small vehicles. I can imagine some of these services running into ordinary passenger stations - even quite small ones - early in the morning. It's much more like Red Star than the mail services.
 

kevjs

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It's not just Royal Mail, remember. There are a lot of delivery companies catering to the online retail market that want to bring goods into urban areas quickly without getting stuck in traffic, and then doing last-mile delivery with small vehicles. I can imagine some of these services running into ordinary passenger stations - even quite small ones - early in the morning. It's much more like Red Star than the mail services.
And the East Midlands Railfreight terminal will have a rail connection - Amazon and the like ship quite a lot into the neighbouring airport (2nd largest volume of cargo in the UK IIRC) - could be quite handy for getting international deliveries to the local distribution centres
 

Bertie the bus

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I'm pretty sure he is referring to the parcel (RES) platform which is still in use and could theoretically be used for parcel trains, assuming that is what he is referring to. If anybody thinks mass mail transportation is coming back to the railway they need to get their head out of the clouds. It isn't.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm pretty sure he is referring to the parcel (RES) platform which is still in use and could theoretically be used for parcel trains, assuming that is what he is referring to. If anybody thinks mass mail transportation is coming back to the railway they need to get their head out of the clouds. It isn't.

Mass mail transport isn't going anywhere, be it the railway or the roads - sending documents by post is dying and will soon be dead.

It's all about parcels.
 

Aictos

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Peterborough Sorting Office is a no go for rail services as:

1. Although its bordering the ECML/Joint Line, there is no rail access at all.

2. The closest rail access is Peterborough station which means you still need road traffic to get to the sorting office.
 

Killingworth

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I'm sure that if it were practical Royal Mail must have thought about it, but Sheffield sorting centre is immediately next to the rail tracks between Meadowhall and Sheffield. There could be room for a dedicated track and facility for rail borne mail if it was deemed appropriate.
 

AndrewE

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Peterborough Sorting Office is a no go for rail services as:

1. Although its bordering the ECML/Joint Line, there is no rail access at all.

2. The closest rail access is Peterborough station which means you still need road traffic to get to the sorting office.
Looking at it I would hope that all is not lost.
If there was a national determination to get trucks off the road and goods - sundries in old-rail speak - into electric trains then it could be done. The location could accommodate a siding round the inside of the curve, and the shed is just a big new shed - which should be easy to adapt.

Forget the split between Parcelforce and Royal Mail, also all the other carriers. It has been said that if governments are going to achieve carbon reduction targets then the economy will have to be reorganised almost onto a war footing, so big penalties on lorry-miles might well push major co-operation/coordination and use of emus. 12-coach trains every few hours would shift a lot of parcels...
 
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AndrewE

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I'm sure that if it were practical Royal Mail must have thought about it, but Sheffield sorting centre is immediately next to the rail tracks between Meadowhall and Sheffield. There could be room for a dedicated track and facility for rail borne mail if it was deemed appropriate.
Don't forget that they deliberately turned their back on rail (probably under political direction.) Reversing policy is an admission of error/lack of foresight/ vindictive retribution so it will be a long time before civil servants will be allowed to admit why things were done. If you want a non-transport example look at how our lot are stringing out the contaminated blood scandal, when the other devolved administrations are behaving far better.
 

Aictos

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Looking at it I would hope that all is not lost.
If there was a national determination to get trucks off the road and goods - sundries in old-rail speak - into electric trains then it could be done. The location could accommodate a siding round the inside of the curve, and the shed is just a big new shed - which should be easy to adapt.

Forget the split between Parcelforce and Royal Mail, also all the other carriers. It has been said that if governments are going to achieve carbon reduction targets then the economy will have to be reorganised almost onto a war footing, so big penalties on lorry-miles might well push major co-operation/coordination and use of emus. 12-coach trains every few hours would shift a lot of parcels...

The old Parcelforce depot used to be rail served until Royal Mail closed it down in the late 90s despite it performing far better then the flagship hub at Coventry indeed Peterborough on a daily basis had to cover Coventry's work.

Now its all retail units on most of the former site but there is still undeveloped land there which could be used.
 

Grumpy

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Don't forget that they deliberately turned their back on rail (probably under political direction.) Reversing policy is an admission of error/lack of foresight/ vindictive retribution so it will be a long time before civil servants will be allowed to admit why things were done.
Rubbish. Despite spending millions on rolling stock and dedicated terminals for Railnet, the subsequent service provided by the railway industry was abysmal with Royal Mail's own quality of service being affected as a result of unpunctual trains. Road was always cheaper than rail, but rail offered a flexible alternative which was considered worth the price. When the service went to pieces the extra cost of rail wasn't worth paying.
 

Grumpy

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I'm sure that if it were practical Royal Mail must have thought about it, but Sheffield sorting centre is immediately next to the rail tracks between Meadowhall and Sheffield. There could be room for a dedicated track and facility for rail borne mail if it was deemed appropriate.
The RM Doncaster rail hub was built to serve Sheffield (and others). Being on the ECML it was simple for Mail trains to make a quick call. Sheffield itself not being on a route used by mail trains.
 

JN114

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Rubbish. Despite spending millions on rolling stock and dedicated terminals for Railnet, the subsequent service provided by the railway industry was abysmal with Royal Mail's own quality of service being affected as a result of unpunctual trains. Road was always cheaper than rail, but rail offered a flexible alternative which was considered worth the price. When the service went to pieces the extra cost of rail wasn't worth paying.

It’s worth noting that the period in railway history we’re referring to is often spoken of as a “year of hell” - with crippling TSRs on several routes as a result of poor inspection regimes by railtrack and a handful of very serious incidents as a result. Punctuality nationally was truly abysmal - it makes 2018 look like child’s play.

Royal Mail were very quick to jump ship at the first sign things weren’t going well; the irony being just as they wound their mail services down Network Rail got into their stride and performance improved significantly.
 

big all

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quite interested in this offshoot thread so have added this post as i don't know if i will get notification without a post
 

js1000

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quite interested in this offshoot thread so have added this post as i don't know if i will get notification without a post
That's one way of doing it. :lol:

I believe you can click the blue 'Watch Thread' text at the top of the page which will notify of any new posts.
 

Journeyman

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Mass mail transport isn't going anywhere, be it the railway or the roads - sending documents by post is dying and will soon be dead.

It's all about parcels.

I wrote and sent almost 200 personal letters last year. It's far from dead.
 

DarloRich

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Rubbish. Despite spending millions on rolling stock and dedicated terminals for Railnet, the subsequent service provided by the railway industry was abysmal with Royal Mail's own quality of service being affected as a result of unpunctual trains. Road was always cheaper than rail, but rail offered a flexible alternative which was considered worth the price. When the service went to pieces the extra cost of rail wasn't worth paying.

It’s worth noting that the period in railway history we’re referring to is often spoken of as a “year of hell” - with crippling TSRs on several routes as a result of poor inspection regimes by railtrack and a handful of very serious incidents as a result. Punctuality nationally was truly abysmal - it makes 2018 look like child’s play.

Royal Mail were very quick to jump ship at the first sign things weren’t going well; the irony being just as they wound their mail services down Network Rail got into their stride and performance improved significantly.

both correct. The problem is that few mail terminals/ amazon warehouse type locations are close to the railway.
 

MikePJ

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DHL have trialled parcel delivery by quadricycle (basically smaller and lighter than a van, and able to access narrow city streets and use cycle routes) and I can see that bringing parcels to city railway stations and then distributing locally by bike and small van is a model that may suit many cities - you want to avoid your vehicles getting stuck in traffic getting to and from the city centre.
 
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