Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?

[PHILIPE]

My understanding was the 144s going to Wales wouldn't be long term, just allow them to withdraw loads of 150s for PRM work to ensure they all get done by December? They couldn't just take the majority of them out of service without getting something else to keep the services going. These 144s would be ideal for that, fairly similar to 143s too keeping training costs to a minimum?

It only seems to be people in the North who have the idea that 144s would go to TFW

 

[Paul_10]

It only seems to be people in the North who have the idea that 144s would go to TFW

Think it would make more sence to go for 142s really as then you got gurantee 100% traction knowledge as no doubts Northerns 142s are exactly the same as TFWs?

Of course GWR 143s would also be exactly the same so the potential is there to ease overcrowding and start rapidly going through PRM mods.

Will be interesting what out of 3 types of pacers interiors northern will target first for withdrawal? The ex merseyrail ones look very shabby too me whilst the ex northern spirit ones look in decent nick yet has less seats and the lack of cycle space a real nuisence. The bus seat pacers are more varied in terms of the interiors so whilst i suspect it will be quite random i would love too see the back of the ex merseyrail ones first and the ex northern spirit ones last but will seat capacity mean the opposite?

 

[Kyle1]

It was about additional rolling stock to provide cover during compliance work, not units that are part of their current rolling stock plan. Pacers would fit the bill, I am struggling to think of anything remotely suitable going off lease until towards the end of the year, which would be too late.

Aren't GA's 156's available in a couple of months?

 

[Chester1]

Aren't GA's 156's available in a couple of months?

Will they be available in the numbers required?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Will they be available in the numbers required?

1x pacer is about 31 meters and 1x156 is 46 metres so 1x 156 = 1.5 pacers. There are 9 GA 156's so that = 13.5 pacers. Also shouldn't we move to another thread for this?

 

[krus_aragon]

Will be interesting what out of 3 types of pacers interiors northern will target first for withdrawal?

i expect they'll base their decisions on the condition under the solebar, and the dates on the lease paperwork, rather than the style of interior.

 

[Paul_10]

i expect they'll base their decisions on the condition under the solebar, and the dates on the lease paperwork, rather than the style of interior.

I suspect so although i cant imagine many will be in any decent condition and all the leases run out at the same time apparently(31st December 2019)

Going to be an interesting year and see whatever the plan is works out.

 

[td97]

100+ shortforms on Northern today (at time of writing). Doesn't seem to me that Pacers will be leaving anytime soon.

 

[superkev]

100+ shortforms on Northern today (at time of writing). Doesn't seem to me that Pacers will be leaving anytime soon.

Surely the leaf fall seasons finished now so Northern should be getting availability back up. Don't they look after there trains or perhaps the clerks in charge expect to maintain an ageing fleet with the same resources as say a southern fleet with mainly new trains.
K

 

[sprinterguy]

100+ shortforms on Northern today (at time of writing). Doesn't seem to me that Pacers will be leaving anytime soon.

It astonishes me that Northern have received 49 additional units from GWR and Scotrail over the past year or so, and while not all of them have entered service yet, they don't seem to have represented so much as a drop in the ocean in terms of improving Northern's shortforms and general lack of capacity. As these cascaded units were presumably meant to aid in Pacer replacement but have had no such effect, I can't wrap my head around how Manchester - Blackpool electrification and 58 class 195 units are supposed to result in the replacement of 102 Pacer units.

 

[Mogster]

Northern Fail showing 95 short formed services yesterday and 144 so far today. 144 does sound high.

 

[Mordac]

Northern Fail showing 95 short formed services yesterday and 144 so far today. 144 does sound high.

How many diagrams would that be, though? That'd be the more useuful number by far.

 

[Mogster]

Yeah, presumably the same short formed train will go back and forth all day.

 

[mallard]

1x pacer is about 31 meters and 1x156 is 46 metres so 1x 156 = 1.5 pacers. There are 9 GA 156's so that = 13.5 pacers.

That's all well and good, but 9 units can't cover 13 diagrams...

 

[adrock1976]

Think it would make more sence to go for 142s really as then you got gurantee 100% traction knowledge as no doubts Northerns 142s are exactly the same as TFWs?

Of course GWR 143s would also be exactly the same so the potential is there to ease overcrowding and start rapidly going through PRM mods.

Will be interesting what out of 3 types of pacers interiors northern will target first for withdrawal? The ex merseyrail ones look very shabby too me whilst the ex northern spirit ones look in decent nick yet has less seats and the lack of cycle space a real nuisence. The bus seat pacers are more varied in terms of the interiors so whilst i suspect it will be quite random i would love too see the back of the ex merseyrail ones first and the ex northern spirit ones last but will seat capacity mean the opposite?

Which Class 142s are the ex Merseyrail ones?

 

[sprinterguy]

Which Class 142s are the ex Merseyrail ones?

Numerically, units 142041 - 049 and 142051 - 058.

The ones with individual, low backed 3+2 seating, external dot matrix destination displays and internal passenger information screens.

 

[Jozhua]

100+ shortforms on Northern today (at time of writing). Doesn't seem to me that Pacers will be leaving anytime soon.

Maybe to get around accessibility 2020 the pacers will be used in conjunction with class 153/156 trains to form 3/4 carriage services?

Been as its taking so long to get new fleets introduced and actually electrify Bolton we might be seeing them around for much longer

 

[adrock1976]

Numerically, units 142041 - 049 and 142051 - 058.

The ones with individual, low backed 3+2 seating, external dot matrix destination displays and internal passenger information screens.

Thanks very much. I only require 056 for sight and haulage from the above list.

 

[ed1971]

I wonder how many people would rate
the Pacers if they were all fitted with Leyland 0.680 Atlanteans engines lol.

Chris, all Pacers had Leyland TL11 engines when built which was an updated and turbocharged O.680, which proved not to be as durable in rail use. The last Atlanteans built with chassis code AN68D/1R (31ft long) or AN68D/2R (33ft long) had what was known as the 4041 series engine and was a 0.680/TL11 cross. I think that this engine was also known as the L11 and was fitted to a lot of Class 101 DMUs in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

It would have been interesting to see how well a DAF 1160 would have coped in rail use! (It was based on the Leyland O.680).

 

[anamyd]

How could they be long term when Pacers will be illegal on 1/1/2020? But if 144s do reach south Wales soon they'll be retiring there rather than in Northern land.

But personally I think TfW should keep 143s and 144s going until all their 150/2s are modified, even if that means keeping Pacers in the Valleys in to 2020. A pacer is better than no train or chronic short forms. It seems impossible to get 35 x 150/2s and 18 x 158s done by December.

16x 158s, as 818/819/822/823/826/829/831/840 are all now PRM. But yes your point very much still stands!

 

[AMD]

It astonishes me that Northern have received 49 additional units from GWR and Scotrail over the past year or so, and while not all of them have entered service yet, they don't seem to have represented so much as a drop in the ocean in terms of improving Northern's shortforms and general lack of capacity. As these cascaded units were presumably meant to aid in Pacer replacement but have had no such effect, I can't wrap my head around how Manchester - Blackpool electrification and 58 class 195 units are supposed to result in the replacement of 102 Pacer units.

There is a small matter of an increase in the number of services run, which started last May - there is something in the region of 30 more unit diagrams to be covered each day. Also with the electrification not being complete, the diesels that should have been freed up from the Bolton corridor to cover some of these new diagrams haven't.

 

[Chester1]

100+ shortforms on Northern today (at time of writing). Doesn't seem to me that Pacers will be leaving anytime soon.

Yeah, presumably the same short formed train will go back and forth all day.

I doubt the number of units is more than saved by electrification and 769s. Introducing EMUs and 769s frees up 2 pacers each because of their size.

It astonishes me that Northern have received 49 additional units from GWR and Scotrail over the past year or so, and while not all of them have entered service yet, they don't seem to have represented so much as a drop in the ocean in terms of improving Northern's shortforms and general lack of capacity. As these cascaded units were presumably meant to aid in Pacer replacement but have had no such effect, I can't wrap my head around how Manchester - Blackpool electrification and 58 class 195 units are supposed to result in the replacement of 102 Pacer units.

Pacers are usually doubled up and your forgetting 8 x 4 coach 769s. I think the fleet utilisation rate must be extremely low because the numbers don't stack up. Northern have received significantly more units than required to run the extra services they are running.

As I keep saying, derogations will be granted to 153s to run only attached to compliant units long before pacers get one, it would be much more tolerable politically.

 

[sprinterguy]

Pacers are usually doubled up and your forgetting 8 x 4 coach 769s. I think the fleet utilisation rate must be extremely low because the numbers don't stack up. Northern have received significantly more units than required to run the extra services they are running.

As I keep saying, derogations will be granted to 153s to run only attached to compliant units long before pacers get one, it would be much more tolerable politically.

Pacers run doubled up in the North West which will make a difference to the number replaced, but in my experience this is much less common on the Yorkshire side of the Pennines. True, I had omitted the 769s, as it's not clear to me how much of an impact they will have on existing Northern diesel diagrams, or even when or where they might enter service.

Arriva must, presumably, have an accurate picture that the number of cascaded and new units, bolstered by electrification, will be sufficient to replace the Pacers, but it seems to me that the numbers proposed will simply perpetuate the 'bare bones' approach to capacity and train length that has been endemic across the North of England for years.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Don't forget that after December, (hopefully!) there won't be any units being taken out of service for PRM mods....

 

[sprinterguy]

Don't forget that after December, (hopefully!) there won't be any units being taken out of service for PRM mods....

That in itself seems optimistic but, even if not, looking at 507021's excellent list on their blog there'll probably still be units being sent away for separate refurbishment work.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I doubt the number of units is more than saved by electrification and 769s. Introducing EMUs and 769s frees up 2 pacers each because of their size.

a 4 car 20 meter unit is about 20 meters longer than a double 2 car pacer.

 

[Chester1]

Pacers run doubled up in the North West which will make a difference to the number replaced, but in my experience this is much less common on the Yorkshire side of the Pennines. True, I had omitted the 769s, as it's not clear to me how much of an impact they will have on existing Northern diesel diagrams, or even when or where they might enter service.

Arriva must, presumably, have an accurate picture that the number of cascaded and new units, bolstered by electrification, will be sufficient to replace the Pacers, but it seems to me that the numbers proposed will simply perpetuate the 'bare bones' approach to capacity and train length that has been endemic across the North of England for years.

The first two 769s are being tested. The 769s will run Wigan-Alderley Edge and Wigan-Stalybridge both of which are run by double sprinters or pacers. The issue you have pointed probably makes a short term conditional derogation for 153s likely. A 2 coach sprinter is a significant capacity increase on a two coach pacer but has fewer seats than 3 car or double 2 car pacers. As a short term measure a 150 + 153 would be OK. I am not expecting anything more than the bare minimum capacity but the pacers can go and some in May because of electrification and 769s. Northerns current shortforming is due to low availability not a shortage of units. They have received ~45 cascaded units, add in electrification and 769s and I reckon that amounts to more seats than all the Northern pacers, before considering the genuinely new trains.

 

[AngelicUpstart]

Northern Journeycheck page shows trains with more coaches as updates. It also shows trains that had planned to be changed but are actually running as originally planned. So the count can be significantly out.

 

[Mogster]

There’s also stealth short forming that doesn’t appear on Journey Check or Northern Fail...

Like the 15:49 from Alderley Edge to Southport currently

 

[sprinterguy]

The first two 769s are being tested. The 769s will run Wigan-Alderley Edge and Wigan-Stalybridge both of which are run by double sprinters or pacers. The issue you have pointed probably makes a short term conditional derogation for 153s likely. A 2 coach sprinter is a significant capacity increase on a two coach pacer but has fewer seats than 3 car or double 2 car pacers. As a short term measure a 150 + 153 would be OK. I am not expecting anything more than the bare minimum capacity but the pacers can go and some in May because of electrification and 769s. Northerns current shortforming is due to low availability not a shortage of units. They have received ~45 cascaded units, add in electrification and 769s and I reckon that amounts to more seats than all the Northern pacers, before considering the genuinely new trains.

Thanks for the clarification, I thought that Wigan and Alderley Edge were somehow involved. I hadn't realised that there are diesel units running through to Alderley Edge at present.

I agree that it seems more likely that the class 153s would receive a derogation than the Pacers would be retained.