Northern ticket machine woes (hypothetical)

[vidal]

Not sure whether to put this here or in General Discussion area - Mods feel free to move if deemed appropriate.

Between Christmas and New Year I travelled from Euxton Balshaw Lane to Preston with my partner. We tried using the ticket machine on the platform but it would not recognise the fact we wanted a Duo ticket so would actually have to pay the full price. We attempted to obtain a promise to pay but the machine seemed to throw a hissy fit and kept asking for a payment card, putting the debit card in brought us back to the purchase tickets screen. In the end we gave up and just went to Preston.

We bought tickets at the ticket office but were told we should have obtained them from the ticket machine at EBA.

If we had been stopped by revenue inspectors on the journey what would have been the likely outcome?

James

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Not sure whether to put this here or in General Discussion area - Mods feel free to move if deemed appropriate.

Between Christmas and New Year I travelled from Euxton Balshaw Lane to Preston with my partner. We tried using the ticket machine on the platform but it would not recognise the fact we wanted a Duo ticket so would actually have to pay the full price. We attempted to obtain a promise to pay but the machine seemed to throw a hissy fit and kept asking for a payment card, putting the debit card in brought us back to the purchase tickets screen. In the end we gave up and just went to Preston.

We bought tickets at the ticket office but were told we should have obtained them from the ticket machine at EBA.

If we had been stopped by revenue inspectors on the journey what would have been the likely outcome?

James

They may have asked to take your details for consideration of prosecution; they may have issued you with a Penalty Fare; they may have sold you a pair of undiscounted Anytime tickets (regardless of the time of travel); they may have sold you the ticket you wanted; or they could have done nothing at all.

All of the approaches except the last two would be wrong, due to the circumstances, and nevertheless it would not surprise me if they did follow one of the wrong approaches.

I would cooperate with whatever they ask at the time, but obviously vigorously fight any later action.

It may be useful to take a photo/video showing the problem on the TVM, as evidence of the problem.

 

[island]

I agree with the above – I would emphasize that taking a video of what happened when you tried to use the ticket machine is strongly advisable. Whilst not legally necessary, it is strong evidence that the ticket facilities weren’t in working order.

 

[vidal]

Thanks guys,

I suppose that not having a ticket or promise to pay is a strict binary offence, but what if the machine won't sell the cheaper ticket? Am I expected to pay extra, in which case how do I claim the difference back. I did think of videoing the whole aborted transaction but with a queue forming behind me I just gave up and let the others attempt to get their tickets.

Interestingly several others had the same problems we did but just walked out of the main entrance at Preston without any checks.

James

 

[gray1404]

I would say that you are entitled to purchase at the first opportunity. If there was no open ticket office and the TVM would not sell the ticket you were after and there were no ticket heks on the train, then your first opportunity was at Preston.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Thanks guys,

I suppose that not having a ticket or promise to pay is a strict binary offence, but what if the machine won't sell the cheaper ticket? Am I expected to pay extra, in which case how do I claim the difference back. I did think of videoing the whole aborted transaction but with a queue forming behind me I just gave up and let the others attempt to get their tickets.

Interestingly several others had the same problems we did but just walked out of the main entrance at Preston without any checks.

James

Failing to have a Promise to Pay notice is not, by itself, an offence. Such notices have no statutory basis whatsoever - they are merely part of an informal Northern policy. It is only failing to use available ticketing facilities that is an offence (and available refers to the acceptance of valid payment methods).

If the ticket you want is not available at the purchasing facilities at your origin, but the payment method you want to use is accepted, then you should buy a ticket to cover at least part of your journey (that costs less than your intended ticket), and then exchange this for the ticket you want at the earliest opportunity.

 

[gray1404]

I stand by what I said that your first opportunity to buy would either be on the train or at Preston as the ticket office was closed, TVM didn't sell your ticket. I also agree that these Promise to Pay Notices have no legal basis.

If it is possible obtain a promise to pay by selecting single to Preston as your destination and get two of these one to cover each of you from the TVM.

I say get two because then you have one each and it prevents anyone saying you need one each later on regardless if they are right or wrong. I have added this last bit in as I see discussion developing.

 

[robbeech]

Discounts and special tickets aside, if you were wanting to buy 2 SVRs from a tvm you’d do so in one transaction. Would Northern consider 1 promise to pay sufficient if you bought both tickets in one transaction on the train?
What about 2 with a 2 together discount that MUST be purchased together?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks guys,

I suppose that not having a ticket or promise to pay is a strict binary offence, but what if the machine won't sell the cheaper ticket? Am I expected to pay extra, in which case how do I claim the difference back. I did think of videoing the whole aborted transaction but with a queue forming behind me I just gave up and let the others attempt to get their tickets.

Interestingly several others had the same problems we did but just walked out of the main entrance at Preston without any checks.

If it's practical, the easiest way is probably to decide to pay cash and take a Promise to Pay. Of course, Northern shouldn't be getting away with this kind of incompetence, but it depends how far you're willing to push such things.

 

[vidal]

If it's practical, the easiest way is probably to decide to pay cash and take a Promise to Pay. Of course, Northern shouldn't be getting away with this kind of incompetence, but it depends how far you're willing to push such things.

Sadly the promise to pay part of the transaction was aborted as the machine kept asking for a payment card . I got stuck in an endless loop as soon as I put the card in it wanted me to buy a more expensive ticket.

Maybe it's my age, but a ticket machine should be quick and foolproof, not something rejected from the Krypton Factor for being too complex.

James

 

[mallard]

If the ticket you want is not available at the purchasing facilities at your origin, but the payment method you want to use is accepted, then you should buy a ticket to cover at least part of your journey (that costs less than your intended ticket), and then exchange this for the ticket you want at the earliest opportunity.

Unfortunately, the clause that allowed that was deleted from the railway's terms and conditions when the NRCoT replaced the NRCoC. The current conditions provides no mechanism for this "exchange", but an excess fare may be possible in some cases. I don't think it's possible to excess from two individual tickets to a singular "duo" ticket.

The current conditions simply state that you must buy a ticket if there are facilities to do so, regardless of whether or not those facilities are capable and willing to sell you the ticket you actually want.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe it's my age, but a ticket machine should be quick and foolproof, not something rejected from the Krypton Factor for being too complex.

I agree. TVM UIs are rarely great in the UK, but Northern's is particularly bad.

 

[erk]

Sadly the promise to pay part of the transaction was aborted as the machine kept asking for a payment card . I got stuck in an endless loop as soon as I put the card in

If it's like the machines I've seen, at the point where they ask for a payment card they also offer a button "I don't have a payment card" (or some such). That's the route to getting a promise to pay.

It means that getting a promise to pay because the ticket you want isn't available may involve lying about your possession of a payment card.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It means that getting a promise to pay because the ticket you want isn't available may involve lying about your possession of a payment card.

Unless Northern have a different policy to other TOCs, what you possess is of no relevance, it's how you wish to pay.

You may have a payment card with £0 balance, for instance. Or it might have £500 balance but that's due to go out tomorrow for your rent, with your spending already drawn out as cash, as many people do.

 

[mallard]

I agree. TVM UIs are rarely great in the UK, but Northern's is particularly bad.

Totally. I travelled from Barnsley to Leeds for New Years, so obviously wanted a period return. The only period return for that route is the "Anytime Short-Distance Return" which I had to hunt through the menus to buy. Still didn't stop the machine from trying to trick me into buying the Off-Peak Day Return (which obviously has vastly different validity) at the last minute. Seems the machines are programmed to always try to force you into buying the very cheapest ticket, even when you've specicially chosen another option.

 

[robbeech]

Unless Northern have a different policy to other TOCs, what you possess is of no relevance, it's how you wish to pay.

They wouldn’t be allowed to have a different policy, though I wouldn’t put it past them to try.

Totally. I travelled from Barnsley to Leeds for New Years, so obviously wanted a period return. The only period return for that route is the "Anytime Short-Distance Return" which I had to hunt through the menus to buy. Still didn't stop the machine from trying to trick me into buying the Off-Peak Day Return (which obviously has vastly different validity) at the last minute. Seems the machines are programmed to always try to force you into buying the very cheapest ticket, even when you've specicially chosen another option.

The issue is, if it didn’t yrybto offer you the cheapest you would get complaints from people suggesting they were over charged.

 

[Jonfun]

They wouldn’t be allowed to have a different policy, though I wouldn’t put it past them to try.




The issue is, if it didn’t yrybto offer you the cheapest you would get complaints from people suggesting they were over charged.

Nobody's suggesting it shouldn't *offer* the cheapest ticket, but equally you shouldn't have it forced on you. It's not complicated to have a screen which offers you a choice between tickets allowing return only today and one allowing return another day.

 

[robbeech]

Nobody's suggesting it shouldn't *offer* the cheapest ticket, but equally you shouldn't have it forced on you. It's not complicated to have a screen which offers you a choice between tickets allowing return only today and one allowing return another day.

You’re absolutely right. It’s not difficult, but it’s too much effort for some TOCs to make it easier. At the end of the day they win each time of a passenger doesn’t buy the ticket they actually wanted because they can’t find it. If they end up buying the more expensive one then they win as they get more money, if you buy the cheaper one without realising it carries extra restrictions they win when they charge you an excess, penalty fare, or hundreds of pounds when they prosecute. There is little incentive to improve things. Thankfully not all machines are like this and it’s obmy certain flows with multiple tickets at multiple times.

 

[30907]

Totally. I travelled from Barnsley to Leeds for New Years, so obviously wanted a period return. The only period return for that route is the "Anytime Short-Distance Return" which I had to hunt through the menus to buy. Still didn't stop the machine from trying to trick me into buying the Off-Peak Day Return (which obviously has vastly different validity) at the last minute. Seems the machines are programmed to always try to force you into buying the very cheapest ticket, even when you've specicially chosen another option.

Nobody's suggesting it shouldn't *offer* the cheapest ticket, but equally you shouldn't have it forced on you. It's not complicated to have a screen which offers you a choice between tickets allowing return only today and one allowing return another day.

Apologies for a slow response, but the Northern TVM issue raised by mallard has been puzzling me and I've finally had an opportunity to check out the TVM at Shipley.
The test was Shipley-Doncaster, which does not appear on the "top fares" screen, nor on the "popular stations" one, so the experience may be slightly different.

1. After choosing the destination, all available fares appear on the first screen.
2. If you choose Anytime Short Return, a pop-up says there is a cheaper fare and gives you an option to change. If you press Continue it disappears.
3. You then buy your ticket.

I don't see how this is "tricking" or "forcing" anyone to choose the cheapest ticket, and I agree with robbeech that it's sensible. Jonfun's suggestion of making people choose between day or period adds another step to every transaction rather than to the small proportion who don't choose the cheapest ticket anyway.

I didn't have time to do photos, sorry, or check out all the other possibilities.

 

[142blue]

Was it travelling at a weekend

 

[30907]

Was it travelling at a weekend

Was what travelling at a weekend?

 

[142blue]

Sorry I meant the OP were they travelling at a weekend when trying to buy the ticket from Euxton

 

[mallard]

I don't see how this is "tricking" or "forcing" anyone to choose the cheapest ticket, and I agree with robbeech that it's sensible.

Suggesting a day return when you've selected a period return, with the wording (along the lines of) "there's a cheaper ticket for your journey" is, at best, extremely misleading. If not down-right dishonest. Not everybody is an expert in the rail fares structure who will understand the implications (especially if they're in a hurry with the pressure of a queue behind them). I can pretty much guarantee that people have been misled into buying the wrong ticket by this and had to pay extra to fix "their" mistake.

 

[30907]

Suggesting a day return when you've selected a period return, with the wording (along the lines of) "there's a cheaper ticket for your journey" is, at best, extremely misleading. If not down-right dishonest. Not everybody is an expert in the rail fares structure who will understand the implications (especially if they're in a hurry with the pressure of a queue behind them). I can pretty much guarantee that people have been misled into buying the wrong ticket by this and had to pay extra to fix "their" mistake.

The correct extra, for those who miss the word "day," is surely the difference to the correct fare?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The correct extra, for those who miss the word "day," is surely the difference to the correct fare?

As long as you notice prior to its expiry at 0430 and find a ticket office that knows how to do that. If you notice after that or can't get to a decent ticket office in that time, the value is lost.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The correct extra, for those who miss the word "day," is surely the difference to the correct fare?

If only. In Northernland a Penalty Fare or prosecution is probably what you might expect. At best, an undiscounted single for the journey undertaken.

 

[30907]

As long as you notice prior to its expiry at 0430 and find a ticket office that knows how to do that. If you notice after that or can't get to a decent ticket office in that time, the value is lost.

If only. In Northernland a Penalty Fare or prosecution is probably what you might expect. At best, an undiscounted single for the journey undertaken.

Sorry, I was meaning "while the ticket is still valid." I agree that if you don't look at the ticket and notice that it wasn't what you intended to buy on your outward journey you could be in trouble.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

I stand by what I said that your first opportunity to buy would either be on the train or at Preston as the ticket office was closed, TVM didn't sell your ticket. I also agree that these Promise to Pay Notices have no legal basis.

However, if the TVM at that station only accepts cards and you know it does offer your ticket then you could cover yourself by taking cash on purpose. Then it becomes as simple as saying the TVM only takes cards and I want to pay by cash. Also, if it is possible obtain a promise to pay by selecting single to Preston as your destination and get two of these one to cover each of you from the TVM.

I say get two because then you have one each and it prevents anyone saying you need one each later on regardless if they are right or wrong. I have added this last bit in as I see discussion developing.

Has anybody else noticed that many Northern TVMs at stations with the threatening posters, don't actually issue the "promise to pay" tickets anyway?

 

[vidal]

Was it travelling at a weekend

Just seen this.

No, it was midweek. The ticket I wanted was valid, just not available from the Ticket Machine.

James

 

[Andrew Nelson]

I've seen Northern TVMs offering peak time tickets at 18:35 on the day before Good Friday, when there are no peak time trains for the next FOUR days.