"Go Paperless" Nagging

[Lucan]

I have just received my TV licence renewal (by post). On the back it has this nag :-

Your next TV licence does not need to be on paper. It's quicker, more convenient and more secure to receive it by email."

More secure? How do they know how secure my computer and its connection are? Even worse, if I had received it into a smartphone, how much more likely that is to be lost or stolen than a house burglar would bother to look through my filing cabinet to fish out my TV licence?

It would not greatly matter even if it did get lost because they still know if you have a licence or not; it's just more convenient have one to check when it expires (they remind you anyway), use as proof of residence*, and if ever a need arose to show it in a court of law.

As for "more convenient", that's debatable. I can pull my licence out of my filing cabinet (2nd drawer down, folder marked "TV") much faster than I could find it on my PC which is not even necessarily switched on.

As for "quicker", why should I care how long it takes to reach me (within reason)? It is not needed as a working document. What matters is that you have paid it in time (I do that on-line), not whether you received it in time.

The constant nagging to go paperless and Direct Debit gets tiresome. I might post separatly about some of the BS and lies I get about the latter.

* "Documents printed off the internet are unacceptable" they say.

 

[DarloRich]

The constant nagging to go paperless and Direct Debit gets tiresome. I might post separatly about some of the BS and lies I get about the latter.

why are you insisting on making your life harder than it need be?

Most people don't have a filling cabinet, or a folder marked TV or any such system. I have a show box. on a shelf in the cupboard. As much of my stuff as possible is on line. It is simply easier. I can access all of my documents from my phone in no time, certainly quicker than digging the shoe box out and wading through the old gas bills and water bills and other stuff.

I accept it might not be for you but don't complain that is is for most people.

 

[nlogax]

Not having a filing cabinet full of paperwork is a blessing. Most of what I need is online including my TV Licence. It pays to keep one or two key paper documents around..a utility bill or two, that sort of thing for a proof of residence as you described (my local recycling depot won't let me in without it), but in this day and age unless you've truly decided to live offline I'm not sure what the point of keeping many of these things is. Scan stuff, keep it in online storage and maintain local copies on your PC or phone in the (very) unlikely event of not being able to access it. Easy.

How many times have you used your TV Licence in a court of law?

 

[Lucan]

My filing cabinet is not just for bills. There is stuff like birth and qualification certificates, old family documents (historical, surely you don't scan those and throw them away?), the instruction booklets that come with appliances and equipment, catalogues I've picked up or been sent, sketches and plans of things I intend to make one day. You must spend a lot of time scanning if you do all that stuff.

For example I get sent the CPC mail order catalogue as a book about 2" thick. They do have an on line catalogue but it is much faster to find something flipping through the book than using their search engine on-line; there is stuff in that paper catalogue that is impossible to find on line even by entering the description. I don't find having a filing cabinet a problem, in a corner behind my desk, and the top is another handy table.

As for using the TV licence in a court of law, the chances are small but the paper thickness of the licence is even smaller, so it's worth keeping. In fact I have had issues with TV licencing, though not as far as in court. The licence enforcers act like a mafia - I suggest you look on YouTube for "TV Licence bailiffs".

 

[BanburyBlue]

I'm with Lucan all the way. I have no issue with people who do want to have everything electronic, but please respect people that like a piece of paper in their hand. I'm also sure I could find my paper tv license a lot quicker that the online version.

I just wish the BBC (and all other companies/organisations/government bodies) that try and force paperless on us were honest. They are not doing it for our benefit, or indeed the environment (as they like to suggest), but because it saves THEM money!!

 

[nlogax]

For example I get sent the CPC mail order catalogue as a book about 2" thick. They do have an on line catalogue but it is much faster to find something flipping through the book than using their search engine on-line; there is stuff in that paper catalogue that is impossible to find on line even by entering the description. I don't find having a filing cabinet a problem, in a corner behind my desk, and the top is another handy table.

That bit I do understand. Mail order catalogs can be a real treat. Once every couple of years I'll get the B&H Photo store catalog which is aways a weighty tome but the old one then goes straight into recycling. Flipping through the online version just isn't the same.

 

[DarloRich]

My filing cabinet is not just for bills. There is stuff like birth and qualification certificates, old family documents (historical, surely you don't scan those and throw them away?), the instruction booklets that come with appliances and equipment, catalogues I've picked up or been sent, sketches and plans of things I intend to make one day. You must spend a lot of time scanning if you do all that stuff.

For example I get sent the CPC mail order catalogue as a book about 2" thick. They do have an on line catalogue but it is much faster to find something flipping through the book than using their search engine on-line; there is stuff in that paper catalogue that is impossible to find on line even by entering the description. I don't find having a filing cabinet a problem, in a corner behind my desk, and the top is another handy table.

Each to their own, of course, but it does seem like a faff and clutter that can be avoided. I don't keep instruction manuals. I read them and bin them after set up. I cant recall the last time i picked up a catalouge and if one comes through the door it goes in the recycle bin. A total waste of time when everything is on line. Open Amazon, type requirement, buy, arrive same day.

I haven't got the skill to draw or make anything!

I'm with Lucan all the way. I have no issue with people who do want to have everything electronic, but please respect people that like a piece of paper in their hand. I'm also sure I could find my paper tv license a lot quicker that the online version.

I just wish the BBC (and all other companies/organisations/government bodies) that try and force paperless on us were honest. They are not doing it for our benefit, or indeed the environment (as they like to suggest), but because it saves THEM money!!

That is surely obvious, however why not take the side benefit of making your life easier? No issue if you don't want to but don't complain when people think you are a bit of a luddite!

Personally i feel a lot of this kind of thing is comfort and habit.

 

[PeterC]

I have a "reference" folder in my webmail account where the confirmation emails for anything registered online reside. It doesn't matter what computer I use, they are always accessible.

If I want to back them up I just forward the email to a different webmail service.

 

[cb a1]

Not having a filing cabinet full of paperwork is a blessing. Most of what I need is online including my TV Licence. It pays to keep one or two key paper documents around..a utility bill or two, that sort of thing for a proof of residence as you described (my local recycling depot won't let me in without it), but in this day and age unless you've truly decided to live offline I'm not sure what the point of keeping many of these things is.

Whilst I'm all for going on-line, I split up with my partner a few months ago and moved into a flat.

For me, I naturally did as much as possible online (including the lease agreement) but then found it a royal pain in the proverbial when I needed proof of address for a new bank account, etc.

 

[Lucan]

I accept it might not be for you but don't complain that is is for most people.

I also accept that your way is for you. Having the paperless option is fine as long as both paper and paperless options remain open. What I am complaining about is the TV Licencing people making assumptions about me, nagging, and telling me lies. How would they know whether paperless is more secure in my case, and anyway - why is it? Allthough several people here have chipped in to say they prefer paperless (no problem for me), that original question of mine is still not answered.

 

[thejuggler]

As a friend found out almost 12 months ago online is convenient until tragedy strikes.

Her husband died unexpectedly and it took weeks to get the paperwork for policies etc.

His business computer was locked, she had no idea of the password. She wasn't even aware of one life insurance policy he had which paid out 6 figures.

We now have everything online, but we also have details of all account numbers etc stored safely in paper format just in case.

 

[BanburyBlue]

I also accept that your way is for you. Having the paperless option is fine as long as both paper and paperless options remain open. What I am complaining about is the TV Licencing people making assumptions about me, nagging, and telling me lies. How would they know whether paperless is more secure in my case, and anyway - why is it? Allthough several people here have chipped in to say they prefer paperless (no problem for me), that original question of mine is still not answered.

Because they're lying! They don't. As I said, they want people to go paperless as it makes it easier and cheaper for them. Hence, big up the perceived benefits to persuade people to move to paperless.

 

[GB]

I don't see what the issue is. Its a few lines on a piece of paper you get once a year saying its easier and more secure to go paperless....whether this is true or not is irrelevant as you are free to completely ignore this and continue with a paper copy. Its not as if they are sending you mail/texts every week or giving you no options.

 

[randompixel]

Re: mentioning accounts for people that pass-away, Google has a way of managing this: https://myaccount.google.com/inactive?pli=1 (I think Facebook has a version too)

 

[gswindale]

It may well be cheaper for them, but that is surely a good thing. Wikipedia suggests almost 27 million addresses requiring a licence. Based on our postage prices at work, then that is over £10 million purely on 1 2nd class letter to each, so double that if you're going to send a reminder and then a copy of the licence out. Add the cost of printing the documents and the paper, then that starts to add up to quite a sizeable amount of money. These costs can be reduced by going digital and could therefore result in more funds being available for the likes of S4C etc.

 

[BanburyBlue]

I have no issues with people going paperless. And no issue with options being offered.

My issue is that it is forced upon you. There are pro's and con's with both approaches, and different people prefer different options. In my case some things I do electronically, and some things I keep hard copies. For example, my bank is continually trying to persuade me to stop receiving paper statements. Sneakily so at times. The main reason they claim is environmental - all that paper saved. Cynical maybe, but I'm sure it's because it saves them money. They're quite happy to bombard me with paper leaflets and letters when they're trying to sell me something.

The claims made about security, convenience etc are disputable. I'm sure for every pro, there is a con, for both scenarios in both directions. After all, there have been plenty of occasions of serious data breaches from big companies. And okay, brick through the front window, versus, smartphone/tablet nicked in the street? You're obviously tech savvy and protect yourself properly - not everyone is (for various reasons).

 

[PeterC]

As a friend found out almost 12 months ago online is convenient until tragedy strikes.

Her husband died unexpectedly and it took weeks to get the paperwork for policies etc.

His business computer was locked, she had no idea of the password. She wasn't even aware of one life insurance policy he had which paid out 6 figures.

We now have everything online, but we also have details of all account numbers etc stored safely in paper format just in case.

You have to make plans for handing over your digital assets to your next of kin. Your passwords have to be available in a reasonably secure form that can be retrieved by your executors. Forget all the stuff about "never writing them down", that was an idea by somebody who was too young to consider the possibility of their own demise.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Blimey, what's the big deal!?

I'm in both camps. I'm very happy to have important stuff emailed to me; I just open the document and save it in the relevant folder on my PC (which is backed up regularly). I've been with my bank for 25 years. Where would I keep 25 year's worth of paper statements? Again, I can just save them to a folder on my PC once I've checked them. Most of my bills are on line. Again, I save the bill to a folder on my PC in the event it is needed.

Life is too short...

 

[DarloRich]

Because they're lying! They don't. As I said, they want people to go paperless as it makes it easier and cheaper for them. Hence, big up the perceived benefits to persuade people to move to paperless.

No one is lying.

 

[Mojo]

For me, I naturally did as much as possible online (including the lease agreement) but then found it a royal pain in the proverbial when I needed proof of address for a new bank account, etc.

This is one area where I actually found it much easier to have it online. Rather than having to go through my folder of bank statements, I could simply download the bank statement as a PDF and email it to whoever needed it.

If you were to print it off, it would appear exactly as a statement would appear if sent in the post.

 

[sprunt]

Where would I keep 25 year's worth of paper statements?

Why would you keep 25 year's worth of paper statements?

 

[gswindale]

Why would you keep 25 year's worth of paper statements?

So you can easily track down which shop you bought that sofa in 23 years ago! Or maybe you're trying to remember the name of that nice restaurant you sent to for your grandmother's 80th Birthday way back and know you'd have paid on card?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Why would you keep 25 year's worth of paper statements?

Exactly !

 

[Lucan]

I don't see what the issue is. Its a few lines on a piece of paper you get once a year saying its easier and more secure to go paperless....

It's an issue because many people will believe it whether true or not for them, until people like me who prefer a paper copy are in a minority, and then they will say because we are in a minority they will discontinue the paper statement option.

It's fake information, which seems to have become a big issue in lots of areas lately.

 

[trash80]

My Mum probably has got 25+ years of paper statements, she've even got a shopping list she made in 1974, great for social historians though if you want to know how much mince cost from the co-op back then...

 

[Bletchleyite]

You have to make plans for handing over your digital assets to your next of kin. Your passwords have to be available in a reasonably secure form that can be retrieved by your executors. Forget all the stuff about "never writing them down", that was an idea by somebody who was too young to consider the possibility of their own demise.

TBH it's probably not a terrible idea to have something like a Keepass key written down and placed in a home safe just in case.

 

[nlogax]

It's an issue because many people will believe it whether true or not for them, until people like me who prefer a paper copy are in a minority, and then they will say because we are in a minority they will discontinue the paper statement option.

You may be reading far too much into this. Going online for most aspects of our household upkeep is the natural direction in which we've collectively been moving since Tim Berners-Lee gave the world HTML nearly thirty years ago. You find it more convenient to keep paper copies of everything? Great - but you have to accept that you -will- be the minority in that regard, if you're not already. Most people seem to be embracing the 21st century when it comes to household management and certainly not clinging onto pointless sheets of A4.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You may be reading far too much into this. Going online for most aspects of our household upkeep is the natural direction in which we've collectively been moving since Tim Berners-Lee gave the world HTML nearly thirty years ago. You find it more convenient to keep paper copies of everything? Great - but you have to accept that you -will- be the minority in that regard, if you're not already. Most people seem to be embracing the 21st century when it comes to household management and certainly not clinging onto pointless sheets of A4.

Or if you do want it, have a printer and print it off yourself.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

It's an issue because many people will believe it whether true or not for them, until people like me who prefer a paper copy are in a minority, and then they will say because we are in a minority they will discontinue the paper statement option.

It's fake information, which seems to have become a big issue in lots of areas lately.

Regardless of whether or not going paperless is cheaper and whether Big Company is lying or not, at the end of the day - what can you personally do about it? Can you lobby them all and argue the case for not going paperless?

Must save a few trees...surely...?

 

[Busaholic]

I have just received my TV licence renewal (by post). On the back it has this nag :-


More secure? How do they know how secure my computer and its connection are? Even worse, if I had received it into a smartphone, how much more likely that is to be lost or stolen than a house burglar would bother to look through my filing cabinet to fish out my TV licence?

It would not greatly matter even if it did get lost because they still know if you have a licence or not; it's just more convenient have one to check when it expires (they remind you anyway), use as proof of residence*, and if ever a need arose to show it in a court of law.

As for "more convenient", that's debatable. I can pull my licence out of my filing cabinet (2nd drawer down, folder marked "TV") much faster than I could find it on my PC which is not even necessarily switched on.

As for "quicker", why should I care how long it takes to reach me (within reason)? It is not needed as a working document. What matters is that you have paid it in time (I do that on-line), not whether you received it in time.

The constant nagging to go paperless and Direct Debit gets tiresome. I might post separatly about some of the BS and lies I get about the latter.

* "Documents printed off the internet are unacceptable" they say.

On 3/2/15 I started a thread on TV Licensing on this General Discussion section following a letter I'd received from these people telling me the TV licence they'd sent me the previous month and for which, as far as I was concerned, I had paid by credit card on their automated phone system had been 'revoked'. This was despite receiving an automated email at the time from them confirming payment had been taken! I won't go over all of it again except to say that if I hadn't by that time received a paper licence from them through the post I'd have felt in a much weaker position defending my innocence against their high-handed incompetence. I'll ALWAYS insist on a paper licence while they are still issued!