Trivia - Obsolete Railway Terms still used

[Bevan Price]

• Passenger
• On time
• Timetable
• new train

Plus :-
Waiting Room.
(Somewhere that passengers can shelter from wind & rain -- bus shelters are useless if the wind is in the "wrong direction")

Station Toilet (95%+ disappeared)
Just about every staffed station used to have (at least) the bare minimum of a gents urinal.

 

[InOban]

And as you pass through Derby it swaps, since I assume that Sheffield to derby is also up? And trains go up into Manchester Vic but down into Picadilly?
Made sense 150 years ago.

 

[yorksrob]

And as you pass through Derby it swaps, since I assume that Sheffield to derby is also up? And trains go up into Manchester Vic but down into Picadilly?
Made sense 150 years ago.

Indeed, particularly as Sheffield to Derby is also towards London.

 

[6Gman]

And as you pass through Derby it swaps, since I assume that Sheffield to derby is also up? And trains go up into Manchester Vic but down into Picadilly?
Made sense 150 years ago.

No. Sheffield to Derby is Up as it's on the way to St Pancras. It wouldn't "swap" since they are two separate sections of track.

Trains go down into Piccadilly from most directions, but Oxford Road to Piccadilly is Up.

Made sense 150 years ago. Still makes sense today.

"There's a shopping trolley dumped on the Up Soho at Hamstead Tunnel" makes perfect sense to the signaller/ driver/ p way staff. What would you suggest instead?

 

[xotGD]

Instead of "Up" and "Down" how about Line A, Line B etc. It works that way on the approach to Leeds.

 

[InOban]

I don't know, but it seems bizarre that a system which dates back to the pre-grouping railway companies is appropriate today. What happens between Edinburgh and Glasgow? Does it depend on the original company which built each of the five routes?

 

[6Gman]

I don't know, but it seems bizarre that a system which dates back to the pre-grouping railway companies is appropriate today. What happens between Edinburgh and Glasgow? Does it depend on the original company which built each of the five routes?

It works.

Why change it?

 

[6Gman]

Instead of "Up" and "Down" how about Line A, Line B etc. It works that way on the approach to Leeds.

But why change it at all?

 

[L&Y Robert]

I think (!) that the GW platforms at Oxford are arranged such that Northbound is 'Down', Southbound is 'UP. However, the "new" line to Bicester (and thence to London) is Northbound (Bicester-wards) is 'Up' and the Southbound (to Oxford bufferstop platforms) is 'Down'. If so, then platforms 1 and 2 have the opposite sense to platforms 3 and 4. Am I right? If so, then the 'up-down' thing could be hugely confusing.

 

[JBuchananGB]

It was my understanding, I don’t know from where, the Up was in the direction of decreasing mileposts, and Down was in the direction of increasing mileposts. Does that resonate with anyone?

 

[Panupreset]

Bardic.

Used to hear ‘it’s on the peg’ as the first country end departure from our yard in the morning used to be put at the country end signal once released from ‘the shed’. No longer possible now, and haven’t heard it for a while consequently.

‘Cars to London’ for example to describe an ECS move. And ‘Q cars’, although I have never heard what the exact definition is.

‘Minder’ is a term that gets used on area of my TOC to refer to a Driver Instructor.

 

[hexagon789]

It was my understanding, I don’t know from where, the Up was in the direction of decreasing mileposts, and Down was in the direction of increasing mileposts. Does that resonate with anyone?

I believe that's generally correct, but seem to recall there are some exceptions to this.

 

[tsr]

‘Cars to London’ for example to describe an ECS move. And ‘Q cars’, although I have never heard what the exact definition is.

“Q” moves are scheduled timings which are pre-planned but not always used every time - in other words, in this case they are spare ECS timings available for use as required.

A train in a “Q” path may run once a week or so, or once in a blue moon. It very much depends on maintenance needs when you’re talking about ECS moves of passenger stock.

Often TOC Controls have lengthy discussions, otherwise known as “faffing”, about which drivers to use for things like “night Qs” or how to make use of their time in the most complicated way known to mankind. I am always entertained by observing the deliberations over such matters on an otherwise quiet evening.

 

[Taunton]

The Up and Down system is long-established, and readily understood by the vast majority of operational railway staff.

It actually predates railways. Stagecoaches on roads, prior to railways, used the expression, to/from London, which the railway adopted. The book "Tom Brown's Schooldays", which has some extensive accounts of travel by coach between London and the school in Rugby, written in the 1820s, has all involved regularly using the expressions of Up coaches and Down coaches.

 

[Panupreset]

“Q” moves are scheduled timings which are pre-planned but not always used every time - in other words, in this case they are spare ECS timings available for use as required.

A train in a “Q” path may run once a week or so, or once in a blue moon. It very much depends on maintenance needs when you’re talking about ECS moves of passenger stock.

Often TOC Controls have lengthy discussions, otherwise known as “faffing”, about which drivers to use for things like “night Qs” or how to make use of their time in the most complicated way known to mankind. I am always entertained by observing the deliberations over such matters on an otherwise quiet evening.

Thanks.
We have the odd diagram or two which finishes with either Q cars back to our yard or on the cushions back.

I remember my first traction instructor referring to coupling units as ‘smashing then up’.

Then there are ‘the wires’ or ‘the knitting’.

 

[Highlandspring]

What happens between Edinburgh and Glasgow?

E&G - Up from Queen Street to Edinburgh
Bathgate - Up from Queen Street LL to Edinburgh
Shotts - Up from Central to Midcalder Jn, Down from Midcalder Jn to Haymarket East Jn, Up from Haymarket East Jn to Edinburgh
Cobbinshaw - Up from Central to Carstairs East Jn, Down from Carstairs East Jn to Edinburgh
Cumbernauld/Grahamston - Up from Queen St to Garnqueen North Jn, Down from Garnqueen North Jn to Carmuirs West Jn, Up from Carmuirs West Jn to Edinburgh

 

[alxndr]

I think (!) that the GW platforms at Oxford are arranged such that Northbound is 'Down', Southbound is 'UP. However, the "new" line to Bicester (and thence to London) is Northbound (Bicester-wards) is 'Up' and the Southbound (to Oxford bufferstop platforms) is 'Down'. If so, then platforms 1 and 2 have the opposite sense to platforms 3 and 4. Am I right? If so, then the 'up-down' thing could be hugely confusing.

I'm not sure if I'm understanding you entirely correctly–this is the sort of thing much better suited to diagrams than words–but that doesn't sound quite right to me. As I understand it (and happy to be correctly by those with more local knowledge!):

The directions change at Gavray Junction where the Down Bicester South West Chord branches off the Up Bletchley and the Up Bicester South West Chord comes off the Down Bletchley.

Or to put it another way, trains from Bicester heading towards Oxford will travel "down" until they get to Gavray Junction where they begin to travel "up."

Neither platform 1 or 2 is really up or down, although they're both bay platforms on the "up side". Of course what goes in must come out so they're used equally in both directions.

It makes a lot more sense when I see it drawn out diagramatically–I think, I hope I've got it right anyway. Worth a few minutes spent looking at the Sectional Appendix (although it is split over the GW and LNW(S) parts).

 

[Taunton]

Neither platform 1 or 2 is really up or down,

A bit like the Grand Old Duke Of York then ...

 

[SP Man]

Not sure if these have come up.

Bert or stable in regards to shutting a loco/unit down.

Screw it down - still appropriate for trains with handbrakes with wheels. Same applies when you 'peg some down as well.

In Basford Hall (Crewe) still 'put them over the hill and knock em down x road'

 

[ComUtoR]

Bardic.

I had mine till about 3yrs ago when they were replaced by that crappy halo torch.

 

[Meerkat]

Why change up and down?
Because it is not clear and requires more route knowledge to understand.
However.......I don’t know how to consistently improve it....
Up and down works with London to an extent, but do northerners think “going down to London”?
London-bound is clearer, but longer, and what would the opposite be - “country bound” or “Exeter bound”, “Bristol bound” etc.
Some lines have clear north/south/east/west bound directions......but some less direct lines could get a bit scruffy on that.

 

[L&Y Robert]

"Through carriage for Nutwood".

 

[6Gman]

Why change up and down?
Because it is not clear and requires more route knowledge to understand.
However.......I don’t know how to consistently improve it....
Up and down works with London to an extent, but do northerners think “going down to London”?
London-bound is clearer, but longer, and what would the opposite be - “country bound” or “Exeter bound”, “Bristol bound” etc.
Some lines have clear north/south/east/west bound directions......but some less direct lines could get a bit scruffy on that.

Exactly. Whatever problems there may be with Up and Down (and I'm not convinced there are any significant issues within the industry) the alternatives all seem worse.

In particular Up and Down are brief and distinct. Northbound and Southbound are longer and share letters which could cause confusion. (Same applies to East and West)

Further, the compass points are widely used in other ways e.g. to name junctions.

Up Line at Coleshill West Junction or Down Line at Coleshill East Junction are clearer than Eastbound at Coleshill West Jn or Westbound at Coleshill East Jn.

 

[scott118]

Handsignaller
Pilotman

 

[yorksrob]

I'm not sure if I'm understanding you entirely correctly–this is the sort of thing much better suited to diagrams than words–but that doesn't sound quite right to me. As I understand it (and happy to be correctly by those with more local knowledge!):

The directions change at Gavray Junction where the Down Bicester South West Chord branches off the Up Bletchley and the Up Bicester South West Chord comes off the Down Bletchley.

Or to put it another way, trains from Bicester heading towards Oxford will travel "down" until they get to Gavray Junction where they begin to travel "up."

Neither platform 1 or 2 is really up or down, although they're both bay platforms on the "up side". Of course what goes in must come out so they're used equally in both directions.

It makes a lot more sense when I see it drawn out diagramatically–I think, I hope I've got it right anyway. Worth a few minutes spent looking at the Sectional Appendix (although it is split over the GW and LNW(S) parts).

It's not about the platform. At Hastings, for example, a train entering from Ore is a down train. When it recommences towards St Leonards, it becomes an up train, regardless of platform.

 

[DanDaDriver]

And as you pass through Derby it swaps, since I assume that Sheffield to derby is also up? And trains go up into Manchester Vic but down into Picadilly?
Made sense 150 years ago.

Are you thinking of the Up and Down Tamworth which starts at Derby?

 

[InOban]

What convention do other railways use, a do they have incidents arising from confusion?

 

[hexagon789]

What convention do other railways use, a do they have incidents arising from confusion?

The French use pair/impair meaning even/odd. Pair is typically towards Paris, impair away from.

 

[alxndr]

It's not about the platform. At Hastings, for example, a train entering from Ore is a down train. When it recommences towards St Leonards, it becomes an up train, regardless of platform.

Agreed, but in some cases a platform can be situated against a line that's designated either up or down., e.g. Oxford platform 3 is adjacent to the Up Oxford Relief. I thought this was what the post that I quoted at was getting at more.

In bidirectional areas you can of course end up with up trains on down roads and vice versa, just to "confuse" things more (I actually think its the simplest and most practical solution).

 

[6Gman]

Agreed, but in some cases a platform can be situated against a line that's designated either up or down., e.g. Oxford platform 3 is adjacent to the Up Oxford Relief. I thought this was what the post that I quoted at was getting at more.

In bidirectional areas you can of course end up with up trains on down roads and vice versa, just to "confuse" things more (I actually think its the simplest and most practical solution).

I think it's important to remember that the descriptors are used to designate and identify the sections of track, rather than any train that happens to use them. There are plenty of bi-directional Up Lines, and Down Lines.