They weren't diverted 'by accident' on the day - they were timetabled on the wrong route and the operator, drivers and Network Rail followed that timetabling.
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Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018
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They weren't diverted 'by accident' on the day - they were timetabled on the wrong route and the operator, drivers and Network Rail followed that timetabling.
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theageofthetra
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There was a track circuit failure on the down after Charlton Lane crossing that day and most of the next with trains being talked past the affected signal so it was quite fortunate they were diverted.
If an amended bid is compliant with the Engineering Access Statement and Timetable Planning Rules, then Network Rail must accept it and offer it back as being what the operator wants to do - there are no grounds (AFAIK) for Network Rail to reject it in the Network Code if it is on the "wrong", but open, route.
It is GTR's responsibility to re-bid it if it was bid wrong in the first place, or the Greenwich route became available again.
NR could informally advise GTR of this (which they might have done for all we know), but it is for GTR to execute it formally.
Failed Unit
Established Member
Went to the meet the manager session today.
Still not much good news.
Good news.
Weekend services will resume in May and all routes should enjoy the same frequency the had pre May 2018. They actually said the weekend traffic has fallen off a cliff since they stopped running a reliable service at weekends. This is because the priority is on the weekdays. If a driver can only work x hours they are focused on the week. The one I spoke to that the hourly service (if we are lucky) is not acceptable and neither are the 3 hour gaps in service that frequently occur. So we can all look forward to that.
They could not commit to great northern- core services at weekends at the moment. But at least getting back to what we had is a big improvement.
The other change already highlighted the 2nd Brighton - Cambridge service they are hoping the can run.
Welwyn - Sevenoaks peak at least December.
Cambridge- Maidstone. Maybe may 2020.
The understood my pain about the last minute announcements of platform changes at Finsbury Park causing people to miss trains. That is all the signallers fault. But once all trains go into the core this won’t need to happen.
Still not much good news.
Good news.
Weekend services will resume in May and all routes should enjoy the same frequency the had pre May 2018. They actually said the weekend traffic has fallen off a cliff since they stopped running a reliable service at weekends. This is because the priority is on the weekdays. If a driver can only work x hours they are focused on the week. The one I spoke to that the hourly service (if we are lucky) is not acceptable and neither are the 3 hour gaps in service that frequently occur. So we can all look forward to that.
They could not commit to great northern- core services at weekends at the moment. But at least getting back to what we had is a big improvement.
The other change already highlighted the 2nd Brighton - Cambridge service they are hoping the can run.
Welwyn - Sevenoaks peak at least December.
Cambridge- Maidstone. Maybe may 2020.
The understood my pain about the last minute announcements of platform changes at Finsbury Park causing people to miss trains. That is all the signallers fault. But once all trains go into the core this won’t need to happen.
OwenB
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Thanks for the summary. Did they say anything about the 717s starting up on the Moorgate line?
Failed Unit
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No. They just don’t know. I hope they do it soon and reasonably slowly. Like whe they did the 387s a few diagrams that if they fail they won’t cause too many issues. The original plan I saw looked a lot if they don’t behave.
I think they're hoping to have three trains operational soon, which sounds like taking it easy. No idea on how many extra trains will be added each week thereafter. It's all hearsay at the moment but I believe the final work (such as shifting stop boards) is being finished now and then it may be good to go.
OwenB
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Can't wait. Those 313s are about ten years past it!
Failed Unit
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That is nice to know. We don’t want a Big Bang followed by another service collapse.
I know it is another thread but will be watching with interest how quickly they can turn them around at WGC to recover delays.
OvergroundMatt
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Cambridge-Maidstone ‘maybe May 2020’ sounds a lot like ‘maybe never’
Failed Unit
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I must admit. I did put that to them. They can’t honestly say if the service will ever run. If it doesn’t can we have the 365s back so they have more cover for when the 700s fail.
Aictos
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I must admit. I did put that to them. They can’t honestly say if the service will ever run. If it doesn’t can we have the 365s back so they have more cover for when the 700s fail.
I prefer the Class 321s myself
I must admit. I did put that to them. They can’t honestly say if the service will ever run. If it doesn’t can we have the 365s back so they have more cover for when the 700s fail.
Just tell the good folk of Meldreth, Shepreth and Foxton that they'd be back to 4-car trains again....
OvergroundMatt
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On another matter - I see the overnight service has been fully restored. Was that recent?I must admit. I did put that to them. They can’t honestly say if the service will ever run. If it doesn’t can we have the 365s back so they have more cover for when the 700s fail.
Last Monday (7th Jan)
bramling
Veteran Member
It does seem slightly daft that the platforms weren’t simply fully extended, surely having mobilised everything to site to do the partial job it would have been worthwhile to finish things off?
Alternatively, could just stop the Cambridge/Brighton service at all stations between Hitchin and Cambridge (I realise this would require further station works) and turn all the 2Cxx services at Letchworth. This would be one solution should the Cambridge branch, and apparently perhaps Cambridge station, find itself overwhelmed when there’s 4tph going from and to the core. Despite the massive amounts of recovery time in places, the 2Cxx services aren’t wonderfully reliable even now - surprisingly so in fact.
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Failed Unit
Established Member
Why would the care. They get on while the train is empty, unless you think everyone from Cambridge will use the service if a train with comfortable seats was provided.
I was joking but forgot about the need for SDO.
Hopefully the service will go through the core as it will save me walking between kx & st Pancras. Hardly a hardship I know but considering the disruption we have suffered recently it would be good if the service was linked up so we get some benefit. It just seems confidence about doing so is still low.
Plus if it does not go through the core we are stuck with the 4 minute wait at Finsbury Park
The depot at Ashford has opened so surely it willI must admit. I did put that to them. They can’t honestly say if the service will ever run. If it doesn’t can we have the 365s back so they have more cover for when the 700s fail.
Route learning has stepped up again for the likes of Peterborough depot. Can't see why GN side services running through the core on weekends has been so delayed given crews continue to change over at finsbury
ATO training hasn't started in earnest yet either
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I think the intention has only ever been to have three Littlehampton-Bedford trains in the morning and three Bedford-Littlehampton trains in the evening. Two in each direction (9N84/9N88 northbound, 9N93/9N97 southbound) are in the present timetable. The two extras (9N86 and 9N85, presumably) are on RTT, but as freight paths:
9N86: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G49304/2019/05/29/advanced
9N95: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G49306/2019/05/29/advanced
I don't believe there's any more to add besides those two.
There certainly can't be any later morning trains from Littlehampton, because the path used by 9N84/86/88 through the core is the standard path used by the Brighton-Bedford trains, which are shifted away from their usual xx28/xx58 departures from Brighton to be roughly xx18/xx48 in the morning. The 0718 from Brighton is followed by the 0759 (0800 from May), so there can't be an 0722 from Littlehampton as it would use the same path as the 0759/0800.
Mikey C
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So one year on we'll finally get the service back to what it was before the big changes...
The weekend service is shocking, all that money and disruption so that we currently on Saturdays have 3 trains an hour between London Bridge and St Pancras, including a 30 minute gap
Isn't the previous poster referring to the GN service being restored to the level it was before May 2018.
The open data sites for Saturday 1 June 2019 currently show the Bedford to Gatwick service being restored but Horsham stoppers running from London Bridge still. Looks like half hourly Kentish Town to Rainham so 6tph St Pancras to London Bridge and 4tph St Pancras to Elephant & Castle.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...19/06/01/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...19/06/01/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt
Looking at open data sites, it looks like there are some changes to the 8-car workings on the Bedford to Brighton / Gatwick Airport / East Grinstead routes associated with Bedford Carriage Sidings from May. I make it that the following are 8-car:
Southbound
0443 Bedford to Brighton (0549 St Pancras)
0515 Bedford to Brighton (0619 St Pancras)
0548 Bedford to Brighton (0649 St Pancras)
0634 Bedford to East Grinstead (0724 St Pancras)
0846 Bedford to Three Bridges (0939 St Pancras)
1519 Bedford to Brighton (1635 London Bridge)
1549 Luton to East Grinstead (1641 London Bridge)
1535 Bedford to Gatwick Airport (1651 London Bridge)
1548 Bedford to Brighton (1705 London Bridge)
1746 Bedford to Brighton (1905 London Bridge)
Northbound
0613 East Grinstead to Bedford (0704 London Bridge)
0622 Brighton to Bedford (0723 London Bridge)
0800 Brighton to Bedford (0903 London Bridge)
0830 Brighton to Bedford (0933 London Bridge)
0845 East Grinstead to Bedford (0940 London Bridge)
1533 Gatwick Airport to Bedford (1636 St Pancras)
1603 Gatwick Airport to Bedford (1706 St Pancras)
1751 East Grinstead to Bedford (1856 St Pancras)
1803 Gatwick Airport to Bedford (1906 St Pancras)
1758 Brighton to Bedford (1921 St Pancras)
1828 Brighton to Bedford (1951 St Pancras)
I have traced them as being the following diagrams:
A
5W13 0258 Bedford C S to Bedford
9W13 0310 Bedford to Brighton
9T04 0622 Brighton to Bedford
9T93 0846 Bedford to Three Bridges
5T93 1036 Three Bridges to Three Bridges Tl Up Depot
5R90 1548 Three Bridges Tl Up Depot to Gatwick Airport
9R90 1603 Gatwick Airport to Bedford
5R90 1802 Bedford to Bedford North Sidings
5R91 1927 Bedford North Sidings to Bedford C S
5T67 2038 Bedford C S to Bedford
9T67 2049 Bedford to Brighton
9W18 2324 Brighton to Bedford
5W18 0224 Bedford to Bedford C S
B
5T05 0446 Bedford C S to Bedford (via Bedford North Sidings)
9T05 0515 Bedford to Brighton
9T10 0800 Brighton to Bedford
9R19 1035 Bedford to Gatwick Airport
9R34 1303 Gatwick Airport to Bedford
9T45 1519 Bedford to Brighton
9T96 1758 Brighton to Bedford
9R59 2032 Bedford to Gatwick Airport
5R59 2247 Gatwick Airport to Three Bridges Tl Up Depot
C
5T07 0532 Bedford C S to Bedford
9T07 0548 Bedford to Brighton
9T12 0830 Brighton to Bedford
5U12 1052 Bedford to Bedford Cauldwell Depot
5L89 1526 Bedford Cauldwell Depot to Luton
9L89 1549 Luton to East Grinstead
9L22 1751 East Grinstead to Bedford
9T65 2018 Bedford to Brighton
9W16 2256 Brighton to Bedford
5W16 0144 Bedford to Bedford C S
D
5W05 0102 Bedford C S to Bedford
9W05 0115 Bedford to Three Bridges
9W14 0415 Three Bridges to Bedford
9L85 0634 Bedford to East Grinstead
9L12 0845 East Grinstead to Bedford
5L12 1058 Bedford to Bedford C S (via Bedford North Sidings)
5T47 1536 Bedford C S to Bedford
9T47 1548 Bedford to Brighton
9T98 1828 Brighton to Bedford
5R63 2048 Bedford to Bedford (via Bedford North Sidings)
9R63 2135 Bedford to Three Bridges
5R63 2353 Three Bridges to Three Bridges Tilgate Sdgs
E
5L02 0444 Three Bridges Tilgate Sdgs to East Grinstead
9L02 0613 East Grinstead to Bedford
9R11 0832 Bedford to Gatwick Airport
9R26 1103 Gatwick Airport to Bedford
5R26 1314 Bedford to Bedford C S
5R39 1522 Bedford C S to Bedford
9R39 1535 Bedford to Gatwick Airport
9R54 1803 Gatwick Airport to Bedford
5J55 2015 Bedford to Cricklewood South Sidings
At present a further 8-car working is out and back from Three Bridges depot in the evening peak having sat out most of the morning peak - presumably this will remain in place.
5W06 0206 Three Bridges Tl Up Depot to Three Bridges
9W06 0215 Three Bridges to Bedford
9T03 0443 Bedford to Brighton
5T03 0730 Brighton to Brighton Down Siding
5T96 0938 Brighton Down Siding to Three Bridges Tl Up Depot
5R44 1518 Three Bridges Tl Up Depot to Gatwick Airport
9R44 1533 Gatwick Airport to Bedford
9T55 1746 Bedford to Brighton
9T60 2025 Brighton to Bedford
9W19 2305 Bedford to Three Bridges
5W19 0136 Three Bridges to Three Bridges Tl Up Depot
Finally, the balancing working to diagram B is:
5W05 0450 Three Bridges Tl Up Depot to London Blackfriars
which goes on to work a Sevenoaks diagram
Clearly, it is important for there to be some 8-car workings on these routes to get units back to Three Bridges depot for maintenance but difficult to keep them away from peak workings.
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I guess it is still a transitional timetable. Presumably whoever drives the Rainham services at the southern end sign Kentish Town and not Luton?
Is there demand for Rainham services to run to Luton at the weekend (e.g. demand for 6tph on the slow line north of Kentish Town)?
The weekend consultation was Luton to Rainham on Monday to Saturday - Kentish Town on Sundays. As you note, there should be Kentish Town to Orpington via Catford Loop as well at the weekend which as yet haven't run and don't look like starting in May.
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All that would happen in that circumstance is that there would be a Driver changeover; typically at London Bridge.
Luton Airport springs to mind in terms of demand.
My view is that Luton to Rainham is a pretty useless service simply because there are or rather will be two quicker ways of getting to North Kent. Its too slow a train running over too long a distance. At the moment Wimbledon loop services start at Luton on Sundays - fairly high on my "reasonably easily achievable" wishlist would be for these to be extended to Luton on Saturdays also, so that from May when the two Bedford - Gatwick's are reinstated, we will back to where we were this time last year with 6tph (2 Brighton, 2 Gatwick, 2 Sutton via Wimbledon) running south from Luton. Then, turn the Rainham's at Blackfriars or preferably Kentish Town, West Hampstead or even St Albans.
the only demand I can see for Rainham services to run to Luton at the weekend would be when Luton play Charlton, ie twice a season, when a couple of trains could be extended to Luton to satisfy passenger flow.
the only demand I can see for Rainham services to run to Luton at the weekend would be when Luton play Charlton, ie twice a season, when a couple of trains could be extended to Luton to satisfy passenger flow.
londonteacher
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Although to get to Luton Airport you could change at London Bridge or Blackfriars anyway so no real hardship with them terminating at Kentish Town.
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