Study to consider Borders Railway extension

[oldman]

The cost of such schemes should be considered against the cost of building and maintaining cities like Edinburgh. Good transport links would make Hawick a commuter town for Edinburgh, far better to build housing in Hawick than Edinburgh in my view.

Housing is going to be built in Edinburgh and the surrounding area - investment in transport is needed there. The forecast is another 50K people in Edinburgh, East and Midlothian by 2028; for the whole Scottish Borders just over 2000.

Hawick is too far away to become a significant commuter town - some people already there commute but people aren't going to choose to move to Hawick over places closer to the city.

 

[Steamysandy]

Living in East Lothian,I am aware of the amount of house building going on and planned.BUT to my mind the infrastructure is not keeping up with it I e the regular complaints re passengers being left at Musselburgh.
In addition I would query the house price demographics being used.How many people can afford half a million for a house?
I heard recently of one site where building has stopped
Are we bheading for an Irish style bubble with empty houses littering the Landscape ( or what's left of it!)?

 

[tomatwark]

Haggisbotherer's remarks about people in the Borders are pretty offensive, and are not the real picture.

I moved here 13 years ago, run a business, employ local people and while there are problems in certain parts, this can be said for anywhere in the UK.

Perhaps Crossrail should be stopped because of all the crime in London or HS2 because of the crime in Manchester and Birmingham.

I wonder if the reason he left, was that he was asked too.

 

[JohnR]

What about through traffic from England making it easier to visit Hawick and Melrose without a costlier and elongated journey via Edinburgh?

And how much traffic would that be? Worth £600m?

 

[Bald Rick]

And how much traffic would that be? Worth £600k?

Corrected your typo.

 

[deltic08]

And how much traffic would that be? Worth £600m?

You don't know and I don't know until the feasibility study is done, but it could be.

Who knows what it will be over 60 years.

 

[JohnR]

Corrected your typo.

Are you suggesting that an extension from Hawick to Carlisle could be built for £600,000 ??? My figure is more likely to be closer than yours.

 

[Bald Rick]

Are you suggesting that an extension from Hawick to Carlisle could be built for £600,000 ??? My figure is more likely to be closer than yours.

,
No, but that the value of the traffic each year would be worth about £600k!

 

[JohnR]

,
No, but that the value of the traffic each year would be worth about £600k!

I'd be very surprised if the diversion traffic generated that amount of additional revenue/savings every year. And even if it did, thats only paying back over 100 years. Not sure that will win any points in a Business Case.

 

[deltic08]

I'd be very surprised if the diversion traffic generated that amount of additional revenue/savings every year. And even if it did, thats only paying back over 100 years. Not sure that will win any points in a Business Case.

Who mentioned diversion traffic? I didn't.

 

[JohnR]

Who mentioned diversion traffic? I didn't.

Perhaps you should read the post I was replying to before you replied to mine.

 

[deltic08]

Perhaps you should read the post I was replying to before you replied to mine.

It would be easier to give me a number.

 

[Northhighland]

Housing is going to be built in Edinburgh and the surrounding area - investment in transport is needed there. The forecast is another 50K people in Edinburgh, East and Midlothian by 2028; for the whole Scottish Borders just over 2000.

Hawick is too far away to become a significant commuter town - some people already there commute but people aren't going to choose to move to Hawick over places closer to the city.

Agreed based on the current situation

Struggle to see the sense in creating ever bigger cities. Costs rise and quality of life is not that great in some of the suburbs of Edinburgh.

We need more diverse housing solutions for families that are healthier than city life.

 

[deltic08]

Housing is going to be built in Edinburgh and the surrounding area - investment in transport is needed there. The forecast is another 50K people in Edinburgh, East and Midlothian by 2028; for the whole Scottish Borders just over 2000.

Hawick is too far away to become a significant commuter town - some people already there commute but people aren't going to choose to move to Hawick over places closer to the city.

Maybe enough commuters in the peaks could justify an express service non-stop between Gala and Edinburgh and vice versa.

That would be around an hour journey time from Hawick stopping at St Boswells, Melrose and Gala only..

 

[JamesT]

Agreed based on the current situation

Struggle to see the sense in creating ever bigger cities. Costs rise and quality of life is not that great in some of the suburbs of Edinburgh.

We need more diverse housing solutions for families that are healthier than city life.

From an environmental POV, city living is probably to be encouraged. Higher density housing uses less resources per person and it's easier to provide decent public transport and other facilities when your users are all nearby. Whereas the countryside almost demands a car by default.

 

[Journeyman]

Whether it makes sense to drive through depends on where you're going. The universal factor in Scottish rail reopening projects so far has been an easier and faster commute into the major employment centres of Glasgow and Edinburgh. If your journey is to pretty much anywhere else, it'll still probably be easier to just drive all the way. That's true of most journeys from anywhere to anywhere really. Someone living in Hawick commuting to Edinburgh now has the easy option of driving to Tweedbank and then letting the train take the strain of getting them into the centre of the city in a comfortable and timely fashion. Otherwise, they'll have to drive all the way and then have the joys of parking in the city centre.

How many people in Hawick work in Edinburgh, at least on a daily basis? I'd suspect it's not actually that many, and the further south you go from Galashiels, the number will drop off sharply.

 

[Altnabreac]

How many people in Hawick work in Edinburgh, at least on a daily basis? I'd suspect it's not actually that many, and the further south you go from Galashiels, the number will drop off sharply.

279 people living in Hawick travelled over 60km to work at the time of the 2011 census. I shouldn't imagine its hugely different now.

I'd think the majority of those 279 people are probably working in the Lothians but by no means all of them will be central Edinburgh and even then rail will struggle to get more than 10-20% of the market so we're talking somewhere in the region of 20-30 people per day.

That's not to say more of a market couldn't be created in the longer term. I also think there'd be a potential commuter market for Hawick - Newtown St Boswells (for the Council HQ) and the BGH (if a Melrose station were positioned close to the hospital). But its clear that its a harder nut to crack than Galashiels - Edinburgh journeys where you already had more like 1000 people a day already commuting to the Lothians.

 

[Journeyman]

279 people living in Hawick travelled over 60km to work at the time of the 2011 census. I shouldn't imagine its hugely different now.

I'd think the majority of those 279 people are probably working in the Lothians but by no means all of them will be central Edinburgh and even then rail will struggle to get more than 10-20% of the market so we're talking somewhere in the region of 20-30 people per day.

That's not to say more of a market couldn't be created in the longer term. I also think there'd be a potential commuter market for Hawick - Newtown St Boswells (for the Council HQ) and the BGH (if a Melrose station were positioned close to the hospital). But its clear that its a harder nut to crack than Galashiels - Edinburgh journeys where you already had more like 1000 people a day already commuting to the Lothians.

Thanks, that's very useful info - it certainly makes Hawick sound a rather more dubious proposition than Gala/Tweedbank. It also doesn't tell us how many of those people head south towards Carlisle (which is 72km away according to Google Maps). If they're split between Edinburgh and Carlisle, an extension from Tweedbank to Hawick will be no good to those travelling south, but building a line all the way through is just far too expensive to contemplate.

 

[JohnR]

Thanks, that's very useful info - it certainly makes Hawick sound a rather more dubious proposition than Gala/Tweedbank. It also doesn't tell us how many of those people head south towards Carlisle (which is 72km away according to Google Maps). If they're split between Edinburgh and Carlisle, an extension from Tweedbank to Hawick will be no good to those travelling south, but building a line all the way through is just far too expensive to contemplate.

I believe the figure was something like 46 people from Hawick and the Borders commuted to Carlisle and Cumbria. Probably indicates more of a problem with the local roads than anything else, but you're not going to get a lot of revenue from there, but it would no doubt increase as Cumbrians decide to relocate to the Borders, because theres a rail line handy.

 

[Altnabreac]

Yes in 2011 less than 50 people commuted from Scottish Borders as a whole to Carlisle. You might imagine a number of them would be found in the Newcastleton area which is significantly closer to Carlisle than Hawick.

 

[Journeyman]

Yes in 2011 less than 50 people commuted from Scottish Borders as a whole to Carlisle. You might imagine a number of them would be found in the Newcastleton area which is significantly closer to Carlisle than Hawick.

All I can conclude from this is that Tweedbank to Hawick is somewhat unlikely to ever be justifiable, and Hawick - Carlisle is in "snowball in Hell" territory.

 

[JohnR]

All I can conclude from this is that Tweedbank to Hawick is somewhat unlikely to ever be justifiable, and Hawick - Carlisle is in "snowball in Hell" territory.

Quite. If there was the possibility of a lot of freight [timber] being moved, that might help justify it, I suppose. If the line (even just the southern section) had been kept open for freight... all these things would make starting a new passenger service more viable. But it really isnt viable, and only really existed because of inter-company rivalry, and certainly the section south of Hawick was obsolete the day it was opened.

 

[deltic08]

All I can conclude from this is that Tweedbank to Hawick is somewhat unlikely to ever be justifiable, and Hawick - Carlisle is in "snowball in Hell" territory.

You might be surprised. It is well known passengers do not like to change mode on a journey and for some do not like to change at all.

If a through train from the Chiltern line via Birmingham NS and one from the East Midlands, Yorkshire via Settle Carlisle is run who knows. At the moment there is not a through train from Leicester via Nottingham to Edinburgh. Two through trains and half a dozen Gala-Carlisle trains would be a good service.

A straighter route would be needed around Riccarton Junction avoiding reverse curves for higher speed.

 

[Journeyman]

You might be surprised. It is well known passengers do not like to change mode on a journey and for some do not like to change at all.

If a through train from the Chiltern line via Birmingham NS and one from the East Midlands, Yorkshire via Settle Carlisle is run who knows. At the moment there is not a through train from Leicester via Nottingham to Edinburgh. Two through trains and half a dozen Gala-Carlisle trains would be a good service.

A straighter route would be needed around Riccarton Junction avoiding reverse curves for higher speed.

I know quite a lot has changed since 1969, but the through St Pancras - Edinburgh services via the Waverley Line were practically empty north of Kettering. The line has absolutely no value as a through route.

 

[najaB]

The line has absolutely no value as a through route.

Maybe not no value, but it brings very little to the table that the ECML/WCML don't provide. And even less once HS2 phase 1 opens.

 

[Clayton]

Yes in 2011 less than 50 people commuted from Scottish Borders as a whole to Carlisle. You might imagine a number of them would be found in the Newcastleton area which is significantly closer to Carlisle than Hawick.

That’s an amazing stat. I guess not many people live in the area, and maybe those that do arent the kind who commute a distance for highly paid jobs. Plus there’s plenty of room to drive and park!

 

[47271]

That’s an amazing stat. I guess not many people live in the area, and maybe those that do arent the kind who commute a distance for highly paid jobs. Plus there’s plenty of room to drive and park!

Absolutely, if you remove the 'I guess' and the 'maybe' from your second sentence then you've summed up the situation perfectly!

 

[Clayton]

Absolutely, if you remove the 'I guess' and the 'maybe' from your second sentence then you've summed up the situation perfectly!

The sort of place that needs a new railway is one with opposite values to all of these points - such as Witney to Oxford, busy place full of people all trying to squeeze over one roundabout into a city with no parking spaces and a medieval centre

 

[47271]

The sort of place that needs a new railway is one with opposite values to all of these points - such as Witney to Oxford, busy place full of people all trying to squeeze over one roundabout into a city with no parking spaces and a medieval centre

To be fair to any extension to the Borders Railway I'd also overlay economic regeneration on top of your values, so Hawick's case could be supported and the rest of the route is junk. You can't regenerate an area where noone has ever lived in the first place.

Anyway, on the subject of regeneration, would it not be better if everyone got behind Levenmouth as a next step for Scottish reopenings and gave the Borders a rest for a couple of years? Or certainly until Scotrail is capable of operating an adequate service to Tweedbank, which they aren't at the moment.

 

[Altnabreac]

To be fair to any extension to the Borders Railway I'd also overlay economic regeneration on top of your values, so Hawick's case could be supported and the rest of the route is junk. You can't regenerate an area where noone has ever lived in the first place.

Anyway, on the subject of regeneration, would it not be better if everyone got behind Levenmouth as a next step for Scottish reopenings and gave the Borders a rest for a couple of years? Or certainly until Scotrail is capable of operating an adequate service to Tweedbank, which they aren't at the moment.

There has been quiet but excellent progress on Levenmouth in the last year. Transport Scotland have taken over promoting the project from Fife Council and Peter Brett Associates have been doing a thorough Option Appraisal report:
https://www.transport.gov.scot/our-approach/strategy/levenmouth-sustainable-transport-study/

The Stage 2 and 3 reports should be published over the next 6 months or so and assuming that a Levenmouth Rail Link is chosen as the preferred Stage 3 option then it could be official Scottish Government policy before the end of the year.