Are ticket barriers at one station an effective deterrent against fare evasion?

[Charlie Smythe]

Other than the very odd few who get a lift to school but not from

I am not sure that "odd few" is the correct term seeing as this is a common thing as it is convenient for the parents.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've previously been in this situation (quite legitimately, there had been no available purchasing facilities at my origin). The gateline staff walked me to the ticket office.

I think what they do depends on how trustworthy you look. I've turned up at the Euston barrier with an RTV (Bletchley ticket office closed that morning due to staff sickness) and they just asked me to go to the ticket office and then pass them the outward ticket once purchased. Which I did, of course, as I'm not a fare-dodger.

(Euston has an excess fares window inside the barrier, but it was closed that morning for some reason)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am not sure that "odd few" is the correct term seeing as this is a common thing as it is convenient for the parents.

In this case it actually doesn't make any difference because the SDS and SDR are pennies apart. A single or return journey each day 5 days a week is enough to make the weekly make financial sense (by about 50p, but even then the convenience wins out, I'd only not buy a season if it was more expensive).

I suppose they could increase the SDS so it's 5p less (it's the SDR that is regulated, I think?) and then it actually hardly matters if they fare-dodge one way as long as there are enough station blocks to ensure that the return journey is always paid for. This might actually make more financial sense than dumping 10 grand on a TVM at Roose. Ulverston of course has both a staffed ticket office and a TVM so there is no excuse for not paying.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Seems like some decided to hang around with friends when they could have traveled- this is typical behavior in teens to stay with mates no one made them do it. Northern kept staff on hand at Ulverston till the next train- clearly the safeguarding element had been thought about.

Excellent total negative generalisation of an entire demographic that already gets enough hate from older generations based of off one small incident at a train station.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

In this case it actually doesn't make any difference because the SDS and SDR are pennies apart. A single or return journey each day 5 days a week is enough to make the weekly make financial sense (by about 50p, but even then the convenience wins out, I'd only not buy a season if it was more expensive).

I suppose they could increase the SDS so it's 5p less (it's the SDR that is regulated, I think?) and then it actually hardly matters if they fare-dodge one way as long as there are enough station blocks to ensure that the return journey is always paid for. This might actually make more financial sense than dumping 10 grand on a TVM at Roose. Ulverston of course has both a staffed ticket office and a TVM so there is no excuse for not paying.

It's not necessarily about cost. A parent may drop their child to school in the morning to save the child time and allow them more time in the morning etc. Also if the trains late in the morning then the child is late. Net result is the child gets in trouble as many teachers can't see both sides to a story. If a child says "sorry i am late, the train was late", the teacher will only hear "i am late" and then give an instant detention (probably after school which then makes homeward travel more difficult) I have been in that situation many many times (except it was a bus but whatever).

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not necessarily about cost. A parent may drop their child to school in the morning to save the child time and allow them more time in the morning etc.

My point is about cost. On that route, there is a financial advantage to a season ticket if you travel 5 days a week regardless of whether it is a single or return journey. Therefore, nearly everyone on that route should have a season ticket, which removes the ability of the kids to fare-dodge and spend the money on sweets etc, which is almost certainly the main cause of this issue.

Also if the trains late in the morning then the child is late. Net result is the child gets in trouble as many teachers can't see both sides to a story. If a child says "sorry i am late, the train was late", the teacher will only hear "i am late" and then give an instant detention (probably after school which then makes homeward travel more difficult) I have been in that situation many many times (except it was a bus but whatever).

That is also an important life lesson, as most employers will see it the same way. If you get there late because the train is late on anything like a frequent basis, you need to get out of bed earlier and take an earlier train. It is not something to shout "not fair" about.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

My point is about cost. On that route, there is a financial advantage to a season ticket if you travel 5 days a week regardless of whether it is a single or return journey. Therefore, nearly everyone on that route should have a season ticket, which removes the ability of the kids to fare-dodge and spend the money on sweets etc, which is almost certainly the main cause of this issue.



That is also an important life lesson, as most employers will see it the same way. If you get there late because the train is late on anything like a frequent basis, you need to get out of bed earlier and take an earlier train. It is not something to shout "not fair" about.

You are correct, it most certainly does make financial sense seeing as the cost different is negligible, but it may not be practical for school children in particular.

My point is that parents dropping kids to school saves children the constant battle they I used to have a few years ago with teachers where they will not listen to anything, alls they they see it they you arrived after 9:00.

You do have to look at his from a kids perspective though, if there is an opertunity to save the money and buy sweets then they are going to do it that’s just children for you. Obviously this further validated you point of season passes basically being a no brainier for most. Me and my mates used to do a similar thing only with bus fairs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You are correct, it most certainly does make financial sense seeing as the cost different is negligible, but it may not be practical for school children in particular

What's impractical about a schoolchild holding a season ticket? I had one when I was a schoolchild, so did most of my mates. It was given to me (a) because it was cheaper, and (b) because there was no scope to spend it on something else.

My point is that parents dropping kids to school saves children the constant battle they I used to have a few years ago with teachers where they will not listen to anything, alls they they see it they you arrived after 9:00.

Once again, this is an important life lesson. Your employer will not be interested in your excuses, either.

There are trains from Dalton to Ulverston (all will have called at Barrow earlier) at 0718, 0756, 0856 taking about 8 minutes a pop. If the 0756 doesn't get them there on time daily (what time does the school start?) then take the 0718 for a bit of leeway and sit chatting with your mates for half an hour (no kid I've ever met has a problem with doing that - indeed I recall at one point a small group of us took an earlier train deliberately precisely so we could do that). That's how life works.

You do have to look at his from a kids perspective though, if there is an opertunity to save the money and buy sweets then they are going to do it that’s just children for you

It is, but that that isn't OK because it's theft and lying and is actually quite serious is the kind of life lesson that needs to be taught to children so that as adults they don't get themselves a RoRA prosecution in short order. This is why I support Northern's actions. Learning that taking things without paying and lying to people is never OK is something one needs to learn to become an adult. And frankly any parent that whines about it and defends their fare-dodging kid over the railway's actions is making a very poor parenting decision which might cost their child dear in later life when they end up in Court on a fare-dodging related charge.

 

[Llanigraham]

Excellent total negative generalisation of an entire demographic that already gets enough hate from older generations based of off one small incident at a train station.

But funnily enough it is EXACTLY what some are said to have done.
See the link to the local press at the beginning of this thread.

 

[Llanigraham]

It's not necessarily about cost. A parent may drop their child to school in the morning to save the child time and allow them more time in the morning etc. Also if the trains late in the morning then the child is late. Net result is the child gets in trouble as many teachers can't see both sides to a story. If a child says "sorry i am late, the train was late", the teacher will only hear "i am late" and then give an instant detention (probably after school which then makes homeward travel more difficult) I have been in that situation many many times (except it was a bus but whatever).

Except that it won't just be ONE child, will it? It will be numerous from the numbers being reported as travelling by train to the school.

 

[philthetube]

So without any proof to the contrary, you seem to think they were lying...

Sorry from what I say you cannot conclude that, I can tell you that I am 5 foot nine tall, that is unsubstantiated, it does not mean I am lying, there are reasons why the child might be lying, there are also reasons why he may be telling the truth, we just don't know.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Except that it won't just be ONE child, will it? It will be numerous from the numbers being reported as travelling by train to the school.

Doesn't matter if it is one child or 100, if they are late the teacher will give a punishment to all for something that is out of their control.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

It is, but that that isn't OK because it's theft and lying and is actually quite serious is the kind of life lesson that needs to be taught to children so that as adults they don't get themselves a RoRA prosecution in short order. This is why I support Northern's actions. Learning that taking things without paying and lying to people is never OK is something one needs to learn to become an adult, and frankly any parent that whines about it and defends their fare-dodging kid over the railway's actions is making a very poor parenting decision which might cost their child dear in later life when they end up in Court on a fare-dodging related charge.

I doubt the parents really care about their kids actions, the problem is that most kids these days lie about anything and some people believe them - leading to the kid pushing his / her chances in the near future. It'll only be a matter of time when the kid is caught and has the full force of the law placed upon them.

I've been told by four of my mates who didn't want to go into detail, that on two seperate occations that a random youth has lied about them over something that didn't even happen but got the police involved - despite all four of them being innocent, three of them lost their job once their employers found out, all because of some (obviously bored) youths thought of having a laugh but instead have destroyed and deflamed four peoples character.

 

[yorkie]

Interesting how this thread now seems to be all about PFs, prosecutions, throwing people off trains etc when the parent who went to the media was complaining that, due to the actions of Northern, their son missed the train despite already having a ticket.

Indeed

Except that it won't just be ONE child, will it? It will be numerous from the numbers being reported as travelling by train to the school.

That won't deter some schools.
https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/10765832.parents-angry-after-200-pupils-kept-in-detention/

Joseph Rowntree School in New Earswick has come under fire after about 15 per cent of the school’s 1,300 pupils were given lunchtime detention for not making the 8.40am start on Tuesday after congestion on the roads due to heavy rain caused traffic gridlock.

And here is another elephant in the room: how long should a passenger arrive at a Northern station before their train (both if already holding a ticket or not)? Has anyone been able to get Northern to answer that?

 

[Agent_Squash]

I think this school seems to have a more understanding approach about railway issues - speaking to a friend it seems that they don’t issue detentions if it’s due to the cancellation of the morning train - especially after they kicked up a fuss earlier this year about it being moved earlier!

 

[Typhoon]

I wonder how many of the kids who missed the train have claimed Delay Repay?

Oh, come on! What percentage of regular travellers claim even though on-board staff make regular announcements. The chance of a parent who never uses the train being aware of delay repay must be very low, and the probability of their offspring having such knowledge be lower still. Even if they claimed, it would probably be thrown out as they couldn't prove they had been prevented from catching the first train.

 

[Stewart2887]

Two of us did Oxford-Edinburgh return between Christmas and new Year. Oxford gate check only, could have done the whole trip on Oxford-Bicester returns. Rediculous. Crosscountry bit up was so rammed, I'm amazed the staff attempted going through the train

 

[Llanigraham]

Doesn't matter if it is one child or 100, if they are late the teacher will give a punishment to all for something that is out of their control.

Sorry, but that is not correct. If a large number of pupils arrived late, all with the same story, especially about a late train, then they would not be punished.
That situation has happened on the Cambrian and to students attending Shrewsbury College and none were punished.

 

[Typhoon]

Is it not possible that the younger sibling attends an after school club and that they are picked up from there?

Northern have acted in a way that they knew would cause "other arrangements" to be made for a significant number of school children, seemingly without warning. I don't think they can possibly expect to avoid negative press by acting in this manner.

You can go on about likelihoods all you like but I know that all sorts of arrangements can and do happen, and to make assumptions that this inconvenience will not create any issues is unwise.

At least one parent felt unhappy enough to go to the press but we don't know what other inconveniences occurred. It was entirely foreseeable that this would backfire on Northern.

Apologies if this point has already been made.

Is it also not possible that two or more friends who catch the train are picked up in Ulverston by one of their parents. This seems to be a rural area* - plenty of isolated hamlets - so just because they have arrived at Ulverston, does not mean they are home. These pupils could be as young as 11 - one of whom may have caught the train and one not. And those left at the end are likely to be the younger pupils, who may well have a valid ticket! Bit awkward if the driver could not go back to pick the 'late' pupil up because they had a job to get to.

Doubtless there are similar situations.

* - based on aerial view. Also lots of my ancestors lived in the area. The vast majority of the men were agricultural labourers. Doesn't seem to have changed much.

 

[yorkie]

Sorry, but that is not correct. If a large number of pupils arrived late, all with the same story, especially about a late train, then they would not be punished.
That situation has happened on the Cambrian and to students attending Shrewsbury College and none were punished.

It depends on the school. Joseph Rowntree School in York became infamous for punishing large numbers of students when their buses were late.

Yes, they are wrong to do so, but they shared an undesirable trait with Northern in not caring about adverse publicity.

Apologies if this point has already been made.

Is it also not possible that two or more friends who catch the train are picked up in Ulverston by one of their parents. This seems to be a rural area* - plenty of isolated hamlets - so just because they have arrived at Ulverston, does not mean they are home. These pupils could be as young as 11 - one of whom may have caught the train and one not. And those left at the end are likely to be the younger pupils, who may well have a valid ticket! Bit awkward if the driver could not go back to pick the 'late' pupil up because they had a job to get to.

Doubtless there are similar situations.

* - based on aerial view. Also lots of my ancestors lived in the area. The vast majority of the men were agricultural labourers. Doesn't seem to have changed much.

There are all sorts of situations. One of the jobs I do is to run after school activities attended by students of this age, and some people appear to have no idea what sort of complicated arrangements can take place and are far too dismissive of the fact a company deliberately and knowingly caused unnecessary delay to a large number of children. A company who has mistreated me and many others I know and refuses to answer my complaints and questions to them. A company I know to act in an appalling manner in a wide range of situations.

 

[sheff1]

Apologies if this point has already been made.

Is it also not possible that two or more friends who catch the train are picked up in Ulverston by one of their parents. This seems to be a rural area* - plenty of isolated hamlets - so just because they have arrived at Ulverston, does not mean they are home.

I cannot understand the point you are trying to make.

1. If the friends you are referring to are being picked up in Ulverston they would not be seeking to board any train from there and hence would not be involved in the reported revenue block in any way.

2. If they are in Ulverston then obviously they are not at home. The whole issue concerns pupils who are travelling home to somewhere other than Ulverston after attending school in Ulverston.

 

[island]

Is one person's word alone proof enough to decide anything by law though? Unless that person is in a position of authority such as a police officer issuing a speeding ticket.

Yes in England and Wales.

No in Scotland.

 

[headshot119]

Sorry, but that is not correct. If a large number of pupils arrived late, all with the same story, especially about a late train, then they would not be punished.
That situation has happened on the Cambrian and to students attending Shrewsbury College and none were punished.

You are wrong. We used to get regularly punished when the school provided bus service was late when I was in High School, even though it was the fault of the bus company.

Good lesson for adult life mind.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It depends on the school. Joseph Rowntree School in York became infamous for punishing large numbers of students when their buses were late.

It also depends on the bus. If the bus is a school or local authority arranged one where the kid and family have no practical choice, then no there should not be a punishment. But if the kid is using a public train service and there is a earlier one they could take (as is true of Ulverston, there's one half an hour earlier than the one most of them probably take), then yes they should. The life lesson is massively important - keep cutting it fine to work in most jobs and being late as a result and you'll end up with the sack. The public train service being unreliable is not the employer's problem, and nor is it, or should it be, the school's.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are all sorts of situations. One of the jobs I do is to run after school activities attended by students of this age, and some people appear to have no idea what sort of complicated arrangements can take place and are far too dismissive of the fact a company deliberately and knowingly caused unnecessary delay to a large number of children. A company who has mistreated me and many others I know and refuses to answer my complaints and questions to them. A company I know to act in an appalling manner in a wide range of situations.

If we're talking of Northern here, to me the fact that they are a rotten company to the core does not affect my view that many people objecting to strong enforcement against fare dodging are probably either fare dodgers or tacitly approve of it. Don't fare dodge and it will not affect you. If you travel daily and don't like queues, buy a season ticket and enjoy the financial saving (OK, only 50p in this case) too. (generic you - not you personally!)

Speeding and parking enforcement are the same - park legally and don't speed and you will never encounter a problem from it. Indeed, I'd like to see more enforcement of some parking restrictions, such as wilfully driving the wrong way in clearly signed one way areas and parking with any part of your vehicle over a line. More debate on that is of course for another thread (or indeed another forum), but it's a very similar thing that people seem to have very similar issues with it, mainly because they themselves like staying an extra 5 minutes for nowt or only paying their train fare when challenged.

 

[WelshBluebird]

anyone objecting to strong enforcement against fare dodging is probably either a fare dodger or tacitly approves of it. Don't fare dodge and it will not affect you.

Speeding and parking enforcement are the same - park legally and don't speed and you will never encounter a problem from it.

Which is great, except that logic doesn't apply to train fares. People who don't try to dodge their fare do get problems from it.

The fact we have posts in this forum about those topics is proof, and you can get those are just the tip of the iceberg and most people wouldn't bother posting on this forum.

If we had an ideal world then I would agree with you. But in reality we have (these could have a thread each tbh, and probably already do!):

• TVM's that breakdown (in some cases often, and in some cases without staff being able to verify in an instant if the machine was broken or not).
• Ticketing facilities (e.g. TVM's) that don't offer the full range of fares.
• TVM's that don't accept the full range of payment methods accepted by the railway.
• Ticketing facilities that are not adequate (e.g. one TVM on one platform of a 2 platform station that may not even be visible from the other platform).
• TVM's with complicated menus and a totally illogical way of getting to what you want without any obvious notices or help on how to do so (e.g. the Northern Promise To Pay stuff which we have discussed before).
• ToC's and staff who decide that valid tickets shouldn't be accepted (see Paddington gateline issues).
• Different systems in use in different parts of the country, meaning if you have only ever traveled by train in one area, the stricter rules in another may catch you out.
• Rail industry mobile apps (that contain either m-tickets, e-tickets or railcards) being pushed buggy updates that break them, thus causing someone who has a valid ticket to no longer have access to it.

And that is before you get into other issues with ticketing, that I accept could also have their own threads each:

• ToC's who do not accept their responsibilities to passengers (look at the issues where tickets are bought before a timetable is changed for engineering works etc, where some ToC's deny they should honor the times of the original ticket and pay delay repay for the delay, or ToC's who refuse to carry delayed passengers on the next service despite the cause of the delay being down to a previous train).
• A ticketing system where fare validity changes way too often without any safeguards (look how often the Routing Guide is changing, and how many changes are happening at once).
• A fragmented ticketing system where websites take into account some rules that others do not.
• A ticketing system that is complex and that does not have an easy quick way to check if a ticket is valid for a particular journey.
• A ticketing system where some ToC's are trying to deny passengers baisc rights defined as part of the ticket types (GWR state on their m-tickets / e-tickets that BoJ is not allowed, despite the type of ticket allowing BoJ and no such restriction being mentioned before purchase).

Currently, the idea of "if you pay your fare you won't have any issues" is so far from reality that I have to call you out on trying to claim that is the case.

Now, if ToC's and the industry fix those issues (hell, even just some of them), then I think more people would be a lot more willing to support clamping down on the actual fare evaders (rather than the current situation where an innocent person can easily be caught out).

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Sorry, but that is not correct. If a large number of pupils arrived late, all with the same story, especially about a late train, then they would not be punished.
That situation has happened on the Cambrian and to students attending Shrewsbury College and none were punished.

You are most certainly wrong. When I was in school which was up until 2 years ago and the school had a contract with Stagecoach Buses to get the buses to divert from the route to pass the school to help the children. When I used to get the bus in the morning, it was often late. The double decker we were on had 100 plus people on and we all got after school detentions because of it. It is regular things as teachers are incapable of seeing the other side of the story.

 

[Bletchleyite]

(Note: @yorkie - I've edited the above with apologies because it sort of implied you supported fare dodging and I know full well you don't and would not seek to make any such accusation!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

You are most certainly wrong. When I was in school which was up until 2 years ago and the school had a contract with Stagecoach Buses to get the buses to divert from the route to pass the school to help the children. When I used to get the bus in the morning, it was often late. The double decker we were on had 100 plus people on and we all got after school detentions because of it. It is regular things as teachers are incapable of seeing the other side of the story.

Fundamentally because there is only one side of the story, you must attend school on time, and you must select a method of transport to get there that reliably gets you there on time. While this bus seems a rather raw deal, if it didn't you should have switched to another (earlier) method of transport. You would of course have a valid complaint with the bus operator, but that complaint does not absolve you of attending school (or work) punctually.

FWIW if I were a business owner I'd accept it once in a while (disaster scenario - "flat tyre rule", you might say) but would not if it was frequent, regardless of reason.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which is great, except that logic doesn't apply to train fares. People who don't try to dodge their fare do get problems from it.

The fact we have posts in this forum about those topics is proof, and you can get those are just the tip of the iceberg and most people wouldn't bother posting on this forum.

If we had an ideal world then I would agree with you. But in reality we have (these could have a thread each tbh, and probably already do!)

Snipped the list, absolutely none of which apply to a schoolchild travelling from Barrow or Roose to Ulverston on a direct train using a child rate season ticket between those two stations purchased by the parent in advance of use (i.e. not by giving the kid the money). Which is how most of them should be travelling, provided they make a journey (single or return) five days a week, which almost all of them will.

What they are almost all doing, you can guarantee it (and it's nothing new), is paying when challenged and pocketing the money. As a paying passenger and taxpayer I want that to stop.