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Ex Fyra and now ETR 700 units new life

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Craig2601

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What are these units now getting used for? I have seen they will be used on the Frecciarossa services but where will they be running and will they have the full 4 class service?
 
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R

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I feel sorry for the Italians getting these massive failures of a train. I wonder how long they will last before getting withdrawn and put in storage yards again.
 

43096

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Maybe a bit harsh
Not harsh at all. Fyra is but one example - ask the Danes about buying Iralian, including the set that went missing and was discovered to have been given away as a gift by Silvio Berlusconi....... to Colonel Gadafi.
 

TRAX

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Here’s a little insight on AnsaldoBreda I made a few weeks ago:

The origins of AnsaldoBreda are alright. The last two to three decades of the company aren’t.

As some members might like a little insight on AB, here are the most notable examples:

• the Fyra affair. International high-speed service between Belgium and the Netherlands. 19 AnsaldoBreda V250 trains ordered in 2004, 9 built at the Pistoia factory between 2004 and 2011, the 10 remaining trains were cancelled.
There were huge delays in construction and delivery.
When the trains started being tested and entered service, major problems with the build quality of the trains arose: rust, snow/ice clogging up equipment, wires dangling without any protection, a piece of roof torn off, a collapsed doorstep, and some equipment and systems issues.
The trains ended up running commercially for less than a year. NS had ordered 16 of them and received 9, and the SNCB orders were never accepted.
The V250 trains are now part of the Trenitalia fleet as their ETR700 class.

• the IC4 saga. In 2000, DSB Danish Railways ordered 83 high-speed DMUs from AnsaldoBreda Pistoia with FPT/Iveco engines (those in the know about Iveco engines will guess that AnsaldoBreda/Iveco is a dangerous combination).
The first were supposed to enter service in 2003. This ended up happening in 2007. The last one arrived in 2013.
Among the issues with the IC4 trains: a faulty ‘mobile’ automatic coupling system preventing DSB from using the trains in a 4-unit multiple formation, reducing their capacity and the purpose DSB had bought them for (high-usage intercity routes); a faulty braking system meaning the top speed of the units had to be reduced from 200 km/h to 170 km/h (140 km/h during the autumn season), again reducing their capability to answer the DSB’s intercity needs and often reducing their use to regional duties.
Cracking appeared early on in axle box housings; cracked exhaust manifolds and broken turbocharger fixing bolts. And the usual systems failures.
There are a lot of details here: https://www.railengineer.uk/2015/02/10/the-cost-of-failure/
DSB considered retiring the trains very early on, but would’ve faced bankruptcy if they had done so.
82 trains are in service now (81 if they scrap the unit involved in the Great Belt accident of two days ago), and DSB has planned their retirement for 2024, around 10 years after the last units were delivered.
83 trains were ordered, but Silvio Berlusconi and AnsaldoBreda gave one to Libya’s Gaddafi as a gift.

• Sirio. The Swedish city of Gothenburg ordered 65 Sirio trams from AnsaldoBreda, planned for delivery for 2005 onwards. From the start, they were plagued with reliability issues, causing track damage, poor ride quality, and malfunctioning air conditioners. Extensive corrosion was then detected on the trams in the 2010s. Even the corrosion repairs were lousy.

• Oslo SL95. Oslo received 32 SL95 trams from AnsaldoBreda from 1999 onwards. Rust appeared early on during the snowy months.

This is just a synthesis of just some of the recent AnsaldoBreda issues which affected brand-new trains as soon as they came out of production. More and better-detailed information can of course be found on the internet.

The BM72s did have quite a few problems when they arrived, more than the usual teething problems trains normally have. Among which: on arrival, the trains were too heavy to allow standing passengers (!) and weight had to be saved to allow 350 standing passengers on the train; the delivery and introduction of the trains were heavily delayed, and NSB indicated that they had never tested a new train do that extent before; electronics of the train were interfering with signals, making them switch from a proceed aspect to a stop aspect before the train had passed it, instead of after; there were 40 AnsaldoBreda employees in Norway working 60-hour shifts (!) to try making the trains work. In 2004, when the trains were still ´brand-new’ (to AB’s standards...), rust was found on the axles.

So, even the 72s were plagued by typical AnsaldoBreda problems. Again, it has been shown that AB got this contract mainly because they offered a product significantly less expensive than the competition (Adtranz and Alstom on that contract), which is a recurring factor in the AnsaldoBreda sagas.
 

LOL The Irony

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superalbs

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Not harsh at all. Fyra is but one example - ask the Danes about buying Iralian, including the set that went missing and was discovered to have been given away as a gift by Silvio Berlusconi....... to Colonel Gadafi.
Or simply ask us about ordering Italian. Rotten 802s from the same factory. ;)
 

superalbs

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Lol, lucky Trenitalia!

However, despite the fact that they're awful, I'm still very open to trying the ETR.700 trains, and will be sure to make a trip over to try them. (Can you fit crash helmets in a Ryanair bag?)
 

AlexNL

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As far as I know, the ex-Fyra trains have not yet entered service. I've been looking on Ferrovie.it (the RailUK of Italy) and with the help of Google Translate, it looks like Trenitalia are reconsidering where to use these trains.

The ETR700 discussion thread on Ferrovie.it, in Italian, is here: http://www.forum.ferrovie.it/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=19549

Lots of paint wibble in that thread as well.
 
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Is it actually worth putting these trains back in to service? These trains are one of the biggest failures of a train to be built. It will cost a huge amount to get them in working order without any problems. Surely it is just better for Trenitalia to get some brand new trains instead?
 

Bletchleyite

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Is it actually worth putting these trains back in to service? These trains are one of the biggest failures of a train to be built. It will cost a huge amount to get them in working order without any problems. Surely it is just better for Trenitalia to get some brand new trains instead?

It is. I'm sure Trenitalia are cursing the Government's requirements to bring the rotten things into service.
 
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Trenitalia probably got a very cheap deal on them. Nobody really wants them so i can't imagine they were sold for much. They probably wont be in service with Trenitalia for long either (unless they have done a massive amount of work to improve them and even then i still don't trust that they would manage to stay in service for long).

Any idea what the plans are for that IC4 in Libya? Does it even still exist or was it destroyed in the war? I doubt DSB would want another one but it seems a shame for it to be sitting in Libya doing nothing. The railway line in Libya is very short (and maybe even destroyed now) so it hardly has anywhere to run.

Its so sad to see what's happened to Libya. I visited four times while Gaddafi was in charge (before the war) and it was a lovely country. The people were so friendly and it was probably the safest country in Africa for tourists. Now the country is overrun with terrorist groups and doesn't even have a working government.

I cant see the railway project that Gaddafi started being reinstated anytime soon unfortunately. Although if it ever does then perhaps Libya will buy all the other IC4 trains from DSB when they withdraw them.
 

tasky

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Am I right in thinking this plant is now Hitachi Rail Italy, where the GWR Class 802s are being made?
 
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Yes indeed it is. It is the same exact factory. That probably explains the problems we have had with them.
 

LOL The Irony

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Any idea what the plans are for that IC4 in Libya? Does it even still exist or was it destroyed in the war? I doubt DSB would want another one but it seems a shame for it to be sitting in Libya doing nothing. The railway line in Libya is very short (and maybe even destroyed now) so it hardly has anywhere to run.
It's still all there. The article I posted is dated 21 March 2013.
 
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Many thanks. Good to hear that it still exists. I might go over and visit it and get some photos if Libya ever becomes safe again (which sadly seems unlikely).
 

Bletchleyite

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Mind you, trenitalia services are not bad and relativly cheap.

They're very similar to France - the long-distance high speed service is quite good (though run on the Romance model, i.e. inconsistent timetabling, compulsory reservations and a lack of through ticketing), but the regional services are relatively poor.
 

duesselmartin

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They're very similar to France - the long-distance high speed service is quite good (though run on the Romance model, i.e. inconsistent timetabling, compulsory reservations and a lack of through ticketing), but the regional services are relatively poor.

In northern Italy regional services may be of old stock at Times, but much more frequent than in many parts of France and cheaper. I rather have Regionale over a TER any day but that is OT.
As to Fyra, I wonders if SNCB/NMBS and NS habe done their homework when ordering or was political intererence involved there.
 

Bletchleyite

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As to Fyra, I wonders if SNCB/NMBS and NS habe done their homework when ordering or was political intererence involved there.

I suspect they may have been a victim of the EU procurement rules, where it's difficult to put a tender out excluding a specific manufacturer[1], and AnsaldoBreda probably came up cheapest because they are rubbish.

[1] Or bus operator; tenders keep going to the disreputable small independents in many areas because they're cheapest.
 

Craig2601

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In northern Italy regional services may be of old stock at Times, but much more frequent than in many parts of France and cheaper. I rather have Regionale over a TER any day but that is OT.
As to Fyra, I wonders if SNCB/NMBS and NS habe done their homework when ordering or was political intererence involved there.
Yep, would always rather have a Regionale than TER, services seem more frequent although I do find the regionale around Milan to be particularly poor compared to regions such as Emilia Romagna. Anyways, the train ex Fyra unit in Lybia is visible from google maps, it certainly looks strange!
 

AlexNL

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In northern Italy regional services may be of old stock at Times, but much more frequent than in many parts of France and cheaper. I rather have Regionale over a TER any day but that is OT.
As to Fyra, I wonders if SNCB/NMBS and NS habe done their homework when ordering or was political intererence involved there.

I suspect they may have been a victim of the EU procurement rules, where it's difficult to put a tender out excluding a specific manufacturer[1], and AnsaldoBreda probably came up cheapest because they are rubbish.

[1] Or bus operator; tenders keep going to the disreputable small independents in many areas because they're cheapest.

When the procurement started there were several contenders, including Alstom and Siemens. In the 'Best And Final Offer' phase the battle was between Alstom and AnsaldoBreda, Siemens had withdrawn earlier.

The Alstom offer was cheaper than what AnsaldoBreda put on the table. However, Alstom withdrew from the tender when the client lowered the size of the initial order. This left NS with just one candidate: the Italians.

Cancelling the tender altogether and starting over wasn't an option due to the timelines, the Government insisted on the start date (April 2007) being adhered to and redoing the rolling stock tender process would've jeopardised that.
 

tasky

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When the procurement started there were several contenders, including Alstom and Siemens. In the 'Best And Final Offer' phase the battle was between Alstom and AnsaldoBreda, Siemens had withdrawn earlier.

The Alstom offer was cheaper than what AnsaldoBreda put on the table. However, Alstom withdrew from the tender when the client lowered the size of the initial order. This left NS with just one candidate: the Italians.

Cancelling the tender altogether and starting over wasn't an option due to the timelines, the Government insisted on the start date (April 2007) being adhered to and redoing the rolling stock tender process would've jeopardised that.
"How bad can it be?"
 
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