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Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?

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yorksrob

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It astonishes me that Northern have received 49 additional units from GWR and Scotrail over the past year or so, and while not all of them have entered service yet, they don't seem to have represented so much as a drop in the ocean in terms of improving Northern's shortforms and general lack of capacity. As these cascaded units were presumably meant to aid in Pacer replacement but have had no such effect, I can't wrap my head around how Manchester - Blackpool electrification and 58 class 195 units are supposed to result in the replacement of 102 Pacer units.

Indeed. Another day, another short form on my line. It seems the more rolling stock they get, the less they seem to have available.
 
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superkev

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It astonishes me that Northern have received 49 additional units from GWR and Scotrail over the past year or so, and while not all of them have entered service yet, they don't seem to have represented so much as a drop in the ocean in terms of improving Northern's shortforms and general lack of capacity.
Yes I too wonder how despite the influx of 50 or so secondhand trains and the ending of the leaf fall season Northern still seem short of working units.
Personal view is they mustn't resource maintenance and spares holding sufficiently to reflect the age of the fleet.
Another factor may be Northerns depots which compare poorly with the new state of the art new ones springing up elsewhere. Shouldnt be trains equal new depots!!
K
 

northernchris

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Yes I too wonder how despite the influx of 50 or so secondhand trains and the ending of the leaf fall season Northern still seem short of working units.
Personal view is they mustn't resource maintenance and spares holding sufficiently to reflect the age of the fleet.
Another factor may be Northerns depots which compare poorly with the new state of the art new ones springing up elsewhere. Shouldnt be trains equal new depots!!
K

I don't think all of the cascaded 156s/158s are in use yet. Don't forget additional 156s are required on Cumbrian Coast, there's a 156 out of service after the level crossing incident on Monday, there's a 142 and potentially 144 out long term plus since May there has been an increase in total number of units required, and an increase in miles per day units cover. There's only so much you can hammer a 30 year old unit, and I suspect that's where the problem is
 

Mogster

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I’ve no idea. It seems to pull its data from Northern Journey Check. Sometimes NJC doesn’t have data for a few hours and Northern Fail shows the same.

I’ve had situations were my services were short formed and they didn’t appear on NJC or NF. On the other hand people posting have suggested that services are occasionally listed as short formed early then restored part way through the day. Personally I haven’t experienced that.

It is interesting though.
 

LOL The Irony

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If a diagram works 2 trains an hour for 18 hours and it's short formed, that's 36 trains. 2 diagrams like that is 72 short forms. It shows how quickly the number increases.
 

anamyd

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So, according to RAIL magazine and TfW Rail Services (the latter in a since deleted tweet), the 144s transferring temporarily isn't (aren't) just a rumour anymore. So when will South Wales get your lovely trains, people of Northernland...? :lol:
 

Chester1

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So, according to RAIL magazine and TfW Rail Services (the latter in a since deleted tweet), the 144s transferring temporarily isn't (aren't) just a rumour anymore. So when will South Wales get your lovely trains, people of Northernland...? :lol:

My bet is in May if the 769s enter service. Combined with EMUs through Bolton it will mean Northern will have nearly all the slower trains they are due to receive. There will be some attempt to shuffle around units to introduce the delayed new services like extending Leeds-Victoria to Chester but there is limited suitable stock.
 

sprinterguy

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Not exactly a withdrawal, quite the opposite if you commute in the North West in fact, but Newton Heath is gaining additional ex-Heaton class 142s as a result of class 158s being introduced into service in the north east:
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...thern-rail-pacers-greater-manchester-15686404
Northern Rail are finally bringing in more trains for passengers... but they're second-hand Pacers shunted over from the North-East.

In a bid to make up the shortfall of carriages which has led to chronic overcrowding on the tracks around Greater Manchester, Northern is about to boost its fleet of - largely unpopular - Pacers.

The call is bound to court controversy among passengers who were promised a phased reduction in the Pacer, also known as the 'nodding donkey' or 'cattle truck'.

Constructed from a bus body attached to a freight train base and built in the 1980s with an intended life-span of 20 years, the operator is still running more than 100 of these rumbling beasts.

They make up 26pc of the 397-strong fleet but Northern has promised their removal by 2020.

However, it looks like passengers reeling from a fresh fare increase are in fact set to be gifted more Pacers before there are less, albeit on a temporary basis.

They will be used to 'temporarily' bolster services in the north ahead of the delivery of brand new trains in the spring.

Northern was unable to tell the M.E.N how many extra Pacers would be moved over, although the North-East is set to receive eight refurbished Sprinters......

.....In Tyne, Tees and Wear - about to receive the refurbished Sprinters - short-forming affected 35 trains or 0.9pc of services.

Mr Chandarana, stakeholder manager, said Network Rail's delayed infrastructure had to led to an 'horrendous' shortage of trains.

This meant their plans for new electric stock had been delayed and as they had already passed on many diesel trains to other operators, led to a lack of carriages. They have tried to plug the gap by borrowing trains, but a shortage remains.

This has been exacerbated by autumnal weather, leading to wheel flats, as well as a programme of refurbishment of 400 existing trains - which Northern are tied into by their franchise agreement.

As a result, the phasing out of the much-maligned Pacers has also been delayed, although the commitment to get rid of them by 2020 still stands.

A spokesman for Northern said: “Manchester and the wider north west will, from spring, start to benefit from the introduction of our brand new trains.

"On some routes in the region, from spring, we will also introduce the first of our Flex trains – new dual fuel units which can run on electrified and non-electrified lines.

“As part of improvements we are making across the Northern network, we will soon be introducing additional Class 158 trains in the north east.

“Our brand new trains will not be used in the north east, with this region instead benefitting from the introduction of refurbished Class 158s.

“The Pacers being replaced by the Class 158s will be used selectively across the north of England to help ease overcrowding for a limited period until they are retired later in the year.”

“Later this year we will deliver more than £600m of investment including 98 new trains that will include air conditioning, free Wi-Fi and at seat power sockets for customers. By the end of 2019 we will also retire our Pacers."
 

anamyd

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My bet is in May if the 769s enter service. Combined with EMUs through Bolton it will mean Northern will have nearly all the slower trains they are due to receive. There will be some attempt to shuffle around units to introduce the delayed new services like extending Leeds-Victoria to Chester but there is limited suitable stock.
Thank you :)
 

anamyd

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Not exactly a withdrawal, quite the opposite if you commute in the North West in fact, but Newton Heath is gaining additional ex-Heaton class 142s as a result of class 158s being introduced into service in the north east:
"rumbling beasts" :D
 

Chester1

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Thank you :)

The 769s entering service are a big if and they would free up 16 DMUs. Full EMU services through Bolton from May is looking extremely likely. I think the most that could go south before the 195s enter service would be the 13 x 2 car 144s. That would require a significant reshuffle to transfer sufficient units across the pennines to replace them.

Not exactly a withdrawal, quite the opposite if you commute in the North West in fact, but Newton Heath is gaining additional ex-Heaton class 142s as a result of class 158s being introduced into service in the north east:

That would indicate that east of the pennines there are already more pacers than needed. Electrification will replace 20+ west of the pennines. May does seem a reasonable bet providing that the full EMU timetable is introduced and some 769s enter service.
 
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sprinterguy

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That would indicate that east of the pennines there are already more pacers than needed.
That'll certainly be the case in the north east once the 158s enter service, but I'm less certain of what the situation in Yorkshire will be. The article does include the quote
The Pacers being replaced by the Class 158s will be used selectively across the north of England
Which possibly suggests that there's still a need for additional Pacers in Yorkshire, though you would think that the 170s from Scotrail would have helped out any stock shortage on the east side of the pennines.
 

northernchris

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though you would think that the 170s from Scotrail would have helped out any stock shortage on the east side of the pennines.

Unfortunately this is not the case, with a significant amount of short forming occurring most days. Since the December timetable change there's been an increase in unit requirements so the 170s haven't made much of an impact in terms of reshuffling stock
 

Mogster

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There’s plenty of shortforming West of Manchester also. From personal experience the Southport line has been hit quite badly in the last couple of weeks.

The 142s are still in heavy use over here. We were treated to a lovely ex Merseyrail example today :lol:
 

Chester1

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Replacing DMUs through Bolton with EMUs and the entry into service of 769s should free up 76 coaches i.e. 38 x 2 car pacers and provide extra capacity through longer coaches. There is limit to how many units Northerns PRM mod black hole can swallow! How many units are currently out of service to undergo work?
 

sprinterguy

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The 142s are still in heavy use over here. We were treated to a lovely ex Merseyrail example today :lol:
They're still in heavy use everywhere, although it's surprised me that inroads are beginning to be made into the north east fleet first: A benefit of not being directly reliant on the introduction of new trains, I suppose!
Replacing DMUs through Bolton with EMUs and the entry into service of 769s should free up 76 coaches i.e. 38 x 2 car pacers and provide extra capacity through longer coaches.
That many? I appreciate that services on the Manchester - Preston corridor typically operate with pairs of units, but I wouldn't have thought that Manchester - Blackpool services required that many diagrams.
 

Mogster

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The PRM bogs do take up huge amounts of space in the small 150 carriages. Standing and seated capacity must be reduced quite a bit.
 

darloscott

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Wouldn't be surprised if they transferred a load of 150s onto 144 diagrams around Yorkshire once they're freed up from Manchester area. Wonder if 769s won't be ready hence why they're backfilling with 142s replaced in NE for now?
 

Chester1

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They're still in heavy use everywhere, although it's surprised me that inroads are beginning to be made into the north east fleet first: A benefit of not being directly reliant on the introduction of new trains, I suppose!

That many? I appreciate that services on the Manchester - Preston corridor typically operate with pairs of units, but I wouldn't have thought that Manchester - Blackpool services required that many diagrams.

Its not a precise figure but its roughly 8+8+4 (Blackpool-Piccadilly, Preston-Airport and Buckshaw-Victoria). Obviously these are often shortformed but they cannot be once they are run by single EMUs.

Wouldn't be surprised if they transferred a load of 150s onto 144 diagrams around Yorkshire once they're freed up from Manchester area. Wonder if 769s won't be ready hence why they're backfilling with 142s replaced in NE for now?

Northern said this week that the 769s would be entering service in spring. There seems to be a good chance that will happen. I think the move of 142s is just because the 158s are ready to re-enter service and Northern are trying to stop short forming.
 

VioletEclipse

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What are the chances of Pacers still being used for most Northern services in and out of York in mid to late February? Just that I might go there then.
 

Chester1

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What are the chances of Pacers still being used for most Northern services in and out of York in mid to late February? Just that I might go there then.

The "North East" that is recieving the refurbished 158s is to the north of Yorkshire! Use of pacers elsewhere will only grow until the new stock enters service and EMUs take over Bolton services.
 

sprinterguy

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The PRM bogs do take up huge amounts of space in the small 150 carriages. Standing and seated capacity must be reduced quite a bit.
Northern class 150s are a complete hotch-potch, but the seated capacity in the toilet fitted vehicle of units with their original Ashbourne seating reduces by 10 seats, and by 4 seats in the ex-FNW vehicles fitted with 3+2 Chapman seating, as the latter were already fitted with disabled accessible toilets when they were refurbished circa 2000, just not ones that are compliant with the current standards. The refurbishment is actually supposed to increase standing capacity.

Taking the 150/2s, fixed seating is reduced to a total of 130 (+3 tip-up) in the Ashbourne seated units, and to 128 (+9 tip-up) in the Chapman seated examples. For comparison Northern's class 142s seat between 106 and 121, depending on layout.
Wouldn't be surprised if they transferred a load of 150s onto 144 diagrams around Yorkshire once they're freed up from Manchester area.
I'm led to believe that was the original plan, and part of the reasoning behind creating a sub-fleet of 3-car hybrid class 150s was to serve as direct replacements for the 3-car 144s.
Its not a precise figure but its roughly 8+8+4 (Blackpool-Piccadilly, Preston-Airport and Buckshaw-Victoria). Obviously these are often shortformed but they cannot be once they are run by single EMUs.
Thanks for elaborating, that helps make things clearer.
 

Mathew S

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The refurbishment is actually supposed to increase standing capacity.
In the sense that it provides more empty floor space to stand in, it does. Whether that's a good thing or not is another topic altogether.
 

xotGD

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In the sense that it provides more empty floor space to stand in, it does. Whether that's a good thing or not is another topic altogether.
A lot of the extra floor space is inside the bog!
 

Mogster

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Extra floorspace is useless without something to hold on to. Standing provision is as poor on the refurbished 150s as it always was.
 
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