Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

[modernrail]

I don't really get the ASLEF thing but it is certainly all very annoying for the average very long suffering and completely disregarded Northern passenger whoever is at fault.

http://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/westmidlandstrains/documents/class-196-schedule-of-finishes-79786

It is true the 196's will get this interior? If so, another example of Northern getting second best. Better seats and moquette for the West Midlands by the look of it.

 

[samuelmorris]

Same Kiel seats as the Anglia 720s right? Would make sense, given they're both Abellio franchises. I did find it rather depressing the ironing boards were selected for the 195s despite my recollection that Northern's public opinion poll suggested an alternative was better-received. The actual colour scheme though, I think I prefer Northern's - this is quite drab by comparison, if a little more 'professional' looking.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Same Kiel seats as the Anglia 720s right? Would make sense, given they're both Abellio franchises. I did find it rather depressing the ironing boards were selected for the 195s despite my recollection that Northern's public opinion poll suggested an alternative was better-received. The actual colour scheme though, I think I prefer Northern's - this is quite drab by comparison, if a little more 'professional' looking.

Yes, I don't believe Abellio intend to use ironing boards or anything similar on any of their stock due to poor feedback when they were proposed for the Anglia units. The 2+2 seated EMUs will be similar to the link but with armrests, while the 3+2 ones will I believe basically be identical to the Anglia ones give or take the provision of some kind of 1st.

I prefer this colour scheme than Northern's stark, cold blues, and actual moquette rather than flat cloth will also be better.

 

[talltim]

195107 transferred from Blackpool to Newton Heath TMD today to allow training to commence there

I caught up with it at Salford Central after it ran on 5Z20 via Bolton


Northern 195107 by Mike McNiven, on Flickr



Northern 150107 by Mike McNiven, on Flickr

Far too many little stickers on the bodyside

 

[Journeyman]

Yes, I don't believe Abellio intend to use ironing boards or anything similar on any of their stock due to poor feedback when they were proposed for the Anglia units. The 2+2 seated EMUs will be similar to the link but with armrests, while the 3+2 ones will I believe basically be identical to the Anglia ones give or take the provision of some kind of 1st.

I prefer this colour scheme than Northern's stark, cold blues, and actual moquette rather than flat cloth will also be better.

Abellio have inflicted ironing boards on ScotRail, in the 385s and refurbished 156s. The latter work services taking five hours from Glasgow to Mallaig!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Abellio have inflicted ironing boards on ScotRail, in the 385s and refurbished 156s. The latter work services taking five hours from Glasgow to Mallaig!

I forgot about those, though to be fair they have a different design of seat base which is thicker and more contoured, and is noticeably more comfortable.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Far too many little stickers on the bodyside

This is the problem with white liveries. Their either bland (Virgin) or filled up with nonsense to make it less bland. Not to mention how dirty they get in winter...

 

[Journeyman]

I forgot about those, though to be fair they have a different design of seat base which is thicker and more contoured, and is noticeably more comfortable.

They're a nice shape, but still far too hard and feel like a rusty iron spike after about twenty minutes. I use the 385s daily (unfortunately).

 

[Journeyman]

This is the problem with white liveries. Their either bland (Virgin) or filled up with nonsense to make it less bland. Not to mention how dirty they get in winter...

I do quite like the Northern livery, although I agree, it's quite fussy in terms of all the extra bits. Some of it is probably stuff that's needed for PRM-TSI compliance, though, so I don't know if you'd be able to do much about it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do quite like the Northern livery, although I agree, it's quite fussy in terms of all the extra bits. Some of it is probably stuff that's needed for PRM-TSI compliance, though, so I don't know if you'd be able to do much about it.

I think it looks quite good with the "extra bits" and quite bland on an end-doored train without them. Looks best with a window band, though, as evidenced by the Class 170 application.

 

[squizzler]

"Training package not acceptable to ASLEF" was the circular released today.
Where we go from here I'm not sure .

Surely any experience on a new train is better than none, so could union members begin to learn the units with the "unacceptable" training course, and then redo whatever had been found lacking when that part of the curriculum gets agreed?

 

[samuelmorris]

That surely depends what the problem is. No point starting if the process has a fundamental flaw, or parts of it would need to be repeated after the issue was resolved.

 

[driver_m]

Surely any experience on a new train is better than none, so could union members begin to learn the units with the "unacceptable" training course, and then redo whatever had been found lacking when that part of the curriculum gets agreed?

The problem could be something like the length of time given to learn the unit. So it would undermine that arguement if you then went and did it with nothing more than a promise to give you extra time..

 

[InOban]

Surely the the content and duration of the training course should be decided by the Safety guys, not by negotiation between the Union and the TOC?

 

[driver_m]

Surely the the content and duration of the training course should be decided by the Safety guys, not by negotiation between the Union and the TOC?

Because the safety guy/girl may well have been pressured unduly by the money guy/girl to shrink the time needed. This all comes into a separate arguement as to why we need unions, which is all for a separate topic really, but seeing as it's getting brought up here and is relevant, that's why I feel it's appropriate to answer. Others may disagree but do we all accept that that is why union involvement is there, because it's had to be in the past and will continue to be as long as something has to be negotiated?

 

[InOban]

When the issues arose with the 385 windows I remember reading that there was a safety committee which included union reps, and which had to approve the new trains. Should there not be a similar committee for the training requirements?

If there is a genuine situation where the Safety teams are being pressured by the TOC, this is a real problem. Given that these people seem to have been very inflexible on other matters, I am surprised.

There is a real danger of the Graylings of this world believing that this is the Union taking every opportunity to determine that they are in charge, not the TOC.

 

[Mollman]

Just to reassure people - as seen on the 230 thread - ASLEF have accepted the training package but have some issues with the units that need resolving before training starts. So the unions aren't just refusing training for no reason.

 

[Eccles1983]

Just to reassure people - as seen on the 230 thread - ASLEF have accepted the training package but have some issues with the units that need resolving before training starts. So the unions aren't just refusing training for no reason.

According to who?

The last circular from a day ago says different.

 

[Bungle965]

I did find it rather depressing the ironing boards were selected for the 195s despite my recollection that Northern's public opinion poll suggested an alternative was better-received.

Yes they held a poll at different locations across the network giving people the chance to try out a couple of seats and pick which one they think was best and which one they think was worst.
I believe that the one that came last was the Fainsa ironing boards seats (not really surprising).
Northern management then went away and had a think and rejected their customers opinion & instead went for a blend of the first & second most popular which no one has tried.
Sam

 

[evoluzione]

Just to reassure people - as seen on the 230 thread - ASLEF have accepted the training package but have some issues with the units that need resolving before training starts. So the unions aren't just refusing training for no reason.

Really, Where do you get this from?

Latest ASLEF circular dated 22nd Jan states that the training package is “not acceptable to ASLEF”

 

[superkev]

"Training package not acceptable to ASLEF" was the circular released today.
Where we go from here I'm not sure .

On the basis that ASLEF have form here my guess is it's about money. Training on overtime or within the working week perhaps.
The new trains do have one handle instead if two.
K

 

[Bletchleyite]

Northern management then went away and had a think and rejected their customers opinion & instead went for a blend of the first & second most popular which no one has tried.

Isn't the blend a sort-of combination of the FISA LEAN (the most popular) and the ironing board, i.e. basically the ScotRail ironing board with the contoured base rather than the Southern/Thameslink one with the harder flat base?

It does seem rather hypocritical to do a survey and ignore it, though. Typically arrogant Northern management.

 

[route101]

What routes will we see the 195s on first?

 

[Bungle965]

The new trains do have one handle instead if two.

Why does that matter?
A 170 has a Traction & Brake Controller and they went into service without too much fuss.
Sam

 

[Bungle965]

Isn't the blend a sort-of combination of the FISA LEAN (the most popular) and the ironing board, i.e. basically the ScotRail ironing board with the contoured base rather than the Southern/Thameslink one with the harder flat base?

It does seem rather hypocritical to do a survey and ignore it, though. Typically arrogant Northern management.

Something like that, I reserve my judgement until I try them out myself but I don't have high hopes unfortunately.
Sam

 

[Bungle965]

What routes will we see the 195s on first?

I believe the idea was to put them on the old TPE routes, so the Blackpool,Windermere and Barrow services that may have changed though so don't take it as gospel.
Sam

 

[Starmill]

It has been rumoured (stress rumour) that they will slot into the class 185 hire in diagrams.

 

[themiller]

I believe the idea was to put them on the old TPE routes, so the Blackpool,Windermere and Barrow services that may have changed though so don't take it as gospel.
Sam

Blackpool's electrified now so no need for them on that service. I have seen a press announcement within the last month that they'll be introduced onto Cumbria services first (but circumstances could change the plan). Northern are having to do quite a bit of juggling concerning their plans for new stock and it's probably a case of wait and see what happens.

 

[Llama]

On the basis that ASLEF have form here my guess is it's about money. Training on overtime or within the working week perhaps.
The new trains do have one handle instead if two.
K

A training agreement has already been reached extending the length of a training day up to ten hours with travelling time. That was implemented last year. The issue is more likely to be the content of the training course.

 

[Mollman]

From the 230 thread yesterday:

Circular came out from ASLEF today. Make of this what you will...


CLASS 230 TRAINING - WMT

In their January session the Executive Committee gave consideration to a report from their Training Sub Committee on the above issue. The Executive Committee dealt with the matter by adopting the following resolution;

117/484 “That the report be noted and the General Secretary be instructed to advise the HR Director, WMT that the proposed training course for the Class 230 is acceptable to ASLEF.

Further EC Res 914/482 be reaffirmed and that training will not commence until all ASLEF concerns have been addressed.

All Branches and Reps WMT be advised.”

Resolution 914/482 is reproduced below for your information.

914/482 “That the report be noted and developments awaited.

Further, the General Secretary be instructed to advise the Operations Director, West Midlands Trains that the Class 230 stock entering service for any purpose other than testing is not acceptable to ASLEF.

All branches and reps be advised.”