March 2019 Oyster Extensions Confirmed

[si404]

On the way north, yes, on the way south, very difficult.

How can you, heading south from Luton AP on an East Midlands Train, avoid the gateline at the MML platforms at St Pancras?

Stations out to Reading will be in zones up to 15, it’s covered in the first thread I linked in post #12, which then links to a TfL staff brief.

It's still not entirely clear whether zone 15* is for all stations Reading - Iver, like how zones 11 and 13 work, or whether it just for the stations not added to the public-facing zones 7-9.

For reference:

Zone 10: Watford Junction, c2c stations to Grays
Zone 11: Broxbourne - Hertford East
Zone 12: Shenfield
Zone 13: Mertsham - Horley
Zone 14: Gatwick

I'd imagine Luton AP would be in zone 14, and the other new stations (with the possible exception of Epsom) in zone 13. Same TOC, after all.

*Or F in the hexadecimal system, with zones being referred to both ways.

 

[Kite159]

I can probably see Epsom going into Zone 8 [only based on Dartford & Swanley going into that zone].

 

[si404]

Dartford & Swanley being in zone 8 would probably suggest zone 7 or 9 (if not 13), so as to give a unique set of fares without having to add another fare scale.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

How can you, heading south from Luton AP on an East Midlands Train, avoid the gateline at the MML platforms at St Pancras?

You can't, but equally you can't stop bewildered tourists boarding the wrong train in the first place . It happens often enough now to Luton and Stansted, where there's no acceptance whatsoever. What do you think it will be like if some, but not all, services from Parkway accept contactless/Oyster?

It would be a ludicrous situation given that there is universal acceptance of Oyster on all services that operate within the Oyster area (I believe now also including Heathrow Express).

 

[TFN]

You can't, but equally you can't stop bewildered tourists boarding the wrong train in the first place . It happens often enough now to Luton and Stansted, where there's no acceptance whatsoever. What do you think it will be like if some, but not all, services from Parkway accept contactless/Oyster?

It would be a ludicrous situation given that there is universal acceptance of Oyster on all services that operate within the Oyster area (I believe now also including Heathrow Express).

Heathrow Express from 19th Feb

 

[londonbridge]

If a zone 5-6 single on Oyster/contactless is £2.30 off-peak (using Wallington-Epsom Downs to find the fare) then even if Epsom goes into zone 6 I'll still save 30p by using a paper ticket for my hospital appoitments, as an off-peak paper return from Wallington to Epsom is £4.30.

 

[JonathanH]

I can probably see Epsom going into Zone 8 [only based on Dartford & Swanley going into that zone].

Don't be fooled by the Ewell stations being in Zone 6 - Epsom is further out of London than Dartford or Swanley.

If a zone 5-6 single on Oyster/contactless is £2.30 off-peak (using Wallington-Epsom Downs to find the fare) then even if Epsom goes into zone 6 I'll still save 30p by using a paper ticket for my hospital appoitments, as an off-peak paper return from Wallington to Epsom is £4.30.

I think it can be safely assumed that Epsom won't be in Zone 6.

 

[yorkie]

Also, surely they already accept oyster given one can carry a travelcard on it? They may well simply assume it's valid, but if I'm on a Stevenage train with an Oyster card (with zones 1-6 travelcard) and a Hadley Wood to Stevenage ticket, I'd fully expect to travel without hassle. (Expect in what they should do, not what I'd think they would do.)

That's valid. Oyster is just a medium; if it has a Travelcard loaded onto it, then the validity of the Travelcard is unaffected by the medium on which that product is held.

 

[si404]

If EMT were willing, they could do a GatEx/HEx style set fare, triggered by the gateline at St Pancras. Tourists would still be fleeced for going on the wrong train, but they would be unlikely to realise as its not a fine.

Current Zone 13 single fares, for reference, are as follows:

Z1-13 with LU: £13.40 peak, £8.60 off
Z1-13: £11.00 peak, £6.30 off
Z2-13 with LU: £11.20 peak, £7.00 off
Z2-13: £7.50 peak, £4.50 off
Z3-13 with LU: £10.10 peak, £7.00 off
Z3-13: £7.20 peak, £4.10 off
Z4-13: £7.20 peak, £4.10 off
Z5-13: £5.30 peak, £3.20 off
Z6-13: £4.40 peak, £2.50 off
Z13-14: £3.90 peak. £2.20 off

fares from St Albans are quite a bit more.

 

[KatieLouLou]

LNER can’t decline to accept routes Any Permitted tickets issued, regardless of the medium the ticket is issued on.

We went through all of this with The Key. LNER has to accept it, despite what their publicity might say.

Is Oyster an "Any Permitted ticket". LNER can refuse to accept Oyster (much like Heathrow Express until now and Southeastern HiSpeed originally). If they don't then they don't get a share of the revenue from passengers using Oyster (which is allocated by TfL).

 

[Hadders]

Is Oyster an "Any Permitted ticket".

Yes. You couldn’t have an operator restricted Oyster fare. LNER would not want to refuse Oyster as they’d lose revenue.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

Yes. You couldn’t have an operator restricted Oyster fare. LNER would not want to refuse Oyster as they’d lose revenue.

I think you can - the 'Not Gatwick Express' fares are examples of Oyster fares that are restricted in this way. The other route codes used (as I said there are 46 of them in total) are probably a reasonable consequence of where they are defined and so there is no doubt about which train to get on. In the Gatwick case, there is also an Any Permitted fare, and I think the same model could be used by LNER. Perhaps there *must* be an Any Permitted fare, but TOC restrictions are allowed on top.

 

[Hadders]

But in the case of Gatwick Oyster can be used but with a different level of fare being charged depending on whether you pass through a particular gate line at Victoria. Realistically this won’t happen between Stevenage and Kings Cross as you really couldn’t use separate gate lines at Kings Cross for LNER services.

In any case LNER only fares are actually cheaper than the Any Permitted ones between Stevenage and Kings Cross.

 

[JonathanH]

If EMT were willing, they could do a GatEx/HEx style set fare, triggered by the gateline at St Pancras. Tourists would still be fleeced for going on the wrong train, but they would be unlikely to realise as its not a fine.

Current Zone 13 single fares, for reference, are as follows:

Z1-13 with LU: £13.40 peak, £8.60 off
Z1-13: £11.00 peak, £6.30 off
Z2-13 with LU: £11.20 peak, £7.00 off
Z2-13: £7.50 peak, £4.50 off
Z3-13 with LU: £10.10 peak, £7.00 off
Z3-13: £7.20 peak, £4.10 off
Z4-13: £7.20 peak, £4.10 off
Z5-13: £5.30 peak, £3.20 off
Z6-13: £4.40 peak, £2.50 off
Z13-14: £3.90 peak. £2.20 off

fares from St Albans are quite a bit more.

Those are the Redhill ones applicable on the line of route towards London but in some cases off the line of route they don't apply - e.g. Redhill to Waddon (5 via 4) is £8.70 peak / £7.00 off peak, Redhill to Mitcham Junction (4 via 3) is £10.10 peak / £7.00 off peak. Redhill to Wandsworth Road (2) or Queenstown Road (2) (and indeed any destination in the SWR area) is £11.00 peak / £6.30 off peak with no option to avoid Zone 1.

[If St Albans takes Zone 13, will they be able to distinguish between destinations either side of London on the direct routes either side?] Ah, ignore that, you just price the destinations as via Zone 1 if they are on the other side of London.

A GX/HEX-style EMT set fare does seem to be the most sensible option for Luton Airport Parkway if they accept Oyster.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

But in the case of Gatwick Oyster can be used but with a different level of fare being charged depending on whether you pass through a particular gate line at Victoria

Good point - and I'm not in favour of the idea by the way, one big advantage of Oyster is that it just works (unless you need to accomplish the mind-bending task of changing from a tram to a train at Wimbledon).

 

[si404]

Those are the Redhill ones applicable on the line of route towards London but in some cases off the line of route they don't apply - e.g. Redhill to Waddon (5 via 4) is £8.70 peak / £7.00 off peak, Redhill to Mitcham Junction (4 via 3) is £10.10 peak / £7.00 off peak. Redhill to Wandsworth Road (2) or Queenstown Road (2) (and indeed any destination in the SWR area) is £11.00 peak / £6.30 off peak with no option to avoid Zone 1.

Goodness me, how does Oyster do that? I can't see how that would work in terms of processing - is there a hidden farescale along the Brighton Main Line which makes fares from Z13 cheaper if the station is along the line?

 

[30907]

As a visitor to UK I get based in Redhill but do not understand the rail system
I purchase an oyster or organise my direct debit card use but need to know the best and CHEAPEST way to get by rail from Reading to Redhill outside peak hours Does anyone know how much the direct rail journey will cost and can we use Oyster Thanks

Oyster is not valid on the Reading-Redhill route.You buy a conventional ticket from an office or machine.
The one-way fare is £16.70 provided you travel after 08.14 from Reading (it's 08.29 from Redhill if you are going the other way - both Monday to Friday).
If you are doing a return journey within one month, that's £28 at the same times.

(This thread is about future changes to Oyster: it will be valid at Reading soon, and it is already valid at Redhill - and Gatwick - but in both cases only on the routes into London)

PS Welcome to the Forum. People here will happily answer questions - I see you've also asked this question on a new thread, and that's the best way to do it.

 

[Aictos]

What zones will the GN/TL stations find themselves in? I guess Zones 7 and 11 as Hertford East is in Zone 11 so would make sense to put Hertford North in the same zone however anything could happen...

 

[si404]

What zones will the GN/TL stations find themselves in? I guess Zones 7 and 11 as Hertford East is in Zone 11 so would make sense to put Hertford North in the same zone however anything could happen...

The key sticking point with that is that GA sets the price of zone 11 (and 12), while GTR sets the price of zones 13 and 14.

Epsom is probably going to be zone 9 (on the NR-2 scale, meaning unique fares), Luton Airport zone 14 (like Gatwick), everything else zone 13. But we'll see...

Zone 11 single fares to Z1: peak NR-only £8.30, peak +LU £11.20, off-peak NR-only £5.90, off-peak +LU £8.60
Zone 13 single fares to Z1: peak NR-only £11.00, peak +LU £13.40, off-peak NR-only £6.30, off-peak +LU £8.60

 

[VT 390]

It would be a ludicrous situation given that there is universal acceptance of Oyster on all services that operate within the Oyster area (I believe now also including Heathrow Express).

How will it know whether to charge the TFL rail fare of Express Fare?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

How will it know whether to charge the TFL rail fare of Express Fare?

There are segregated ticket barriers at the Paddington platforms (just like how the Gatwick Express ripoff works now, except this one is even more pronounced but at least 'legal').

 

[JonathanH]

The key sticking point with that is that GA sets the price of zone 11 (and 12), while GTR sets the price of zones 13 and 14.

Epsom is probably going to be zone 9 (on the NR-2 scale, meaning unique fares), Luton Airport zone 14 (like Gatwick), everything else zone 13. But we'll see...

Zone 11 single fares to Z1: peak NR-only £8.30, peak +LU £11.20, off-peak NR-only £5.90, off-peak +LU £8.60
Zone 13 single fares to Z1: peak NR-only £11.00, peak +LU £13.40, off-peak NR-only £6.30, off-peak +LU £8.60

Does Epsom have to be in Zone 9? Does Zone 9 come with the problem that for capping the station is on a TfL scale? Would it not be better to set the fares consistently with those at Merstham?

With Zone 13, it isn't as simple as you set out. The fares in fact differ at Merstham, Redhill & Earlswood, Salfords & Horley, so it would appear likely that they can differ at Radlett, St Albans City and Harpenden.

London Terminals

Merstham Peak £9.70, Off-peak £5.90
Redhill & Earlswood Peak £11.00, Off-peak £6.30
Salfords & Horley Peak £11.20, Off-peak £6.30

Zone 1 Underground

Merstham Peak £12.10, Off-peak £8.30
Redhill & Earlswood Peak £13.40, Off-peak £8.60
Salfords & Horley Peak £13.60, Off-peak £9.40

It appears that the fares differ from Merstham / Redhill & Earlswood / Horley & Salfords on the line of route / to South West London but are the same at all stations Redhill to Horley for locations like Waddon that I mentioned before off the line of route and cross-London destinations.

How many subscales are possible within Oyster for a single zone? Is 3 (as applied to Merstham / Redhill & Earlswood / Salfords & Horley) the maximum number? Even then, can the split only be applied to certain destinations?

 

[si404]

Does Epsom have to be in Zone 9? Does Zone 9 come with the problem that for capping the station is on a TfL scale? Would it not be better to set the fares consistently with those at Merstham?

In order:
No it doesn't.

Sort of, though it would have unique set of fares, with a proviso that they are higher than Dartford & Swanley (which are already high, despite being zone 8, but not as high as current Epsom fares).

Unlike the other stations in question, Epsom has SWR as its main service, whereas the other new stations are soley (1tph of EMT at Luton Airport excepted) GTR, and so might seek to have a unique fare scale that SWR can lean on TfL about rather than have GTR control the fares.

With Zone 13, it isn't as simple as you set out.

So Zone 13 it is for the GTR stations then, save Luton Airport!

How many subscales are possible within Oyster for a single zone? Is 3 (as applied to Merstham / Redhill & Earlswood / Salfords & Horley) the maximum number?

I imagine they do this with fare scales, not zones (you meant sub-zones right). I believe 3 came about because there were three free zones available when first done - cf this, but AFAICS, the limit is high enough that isn't a problem to make it that the other 3 GTR lines, and Elizabeth Line, can do similar to the Gatwick line with each one, two or three stations having different fares - each individually.

Oddly, Greater Anglia doesn't do this with zone 11 - the fares are the same from Hertford East or Broxbourne.

 

[JonathanH]

Looking at the current fares, perhaps zone 9 does work for Epsom although the seven day travelcard season is £72.90, some way short of the Zone 1-9 seven day travelcard which is £91.50.

An anytime travelcard from Epsom is £21.70 which sits between the 1-9 anytime cap and 1-9 anytime paper travelcard.

As you note, zone 9 NR scale is vacant so fares can be set at SWR's levels as the primary fare setter for the route.

Extending Oyster doesn't come easy relative to current fares does it?

 

[MikeWh]

Don't be fooled by the Ewell stations being in Zone 6 - Epsom is further out of London than Dartford or Swanley.



I think it can be safely assumed that Epsom won't be in Zone 6.

London Bridge to Dartford - 15 miles
London Bridge to Epsom - 17 miles 8 chains
Waterloo East to Dartford - 16 mile 8 chains
Waterloo to Epsom - 14 mile 18 chains

So it depends where you measure it from. Zone 6 is considerably wider than 2 miles at just about every point on the circle. You are right though, Epsom will not be in zone 6.

 

[JonathanH]

London Bridge to Dartford - 15 miles
London Bridge to Epsom - 17 miles 8 chains
Waterloo East to Dartford - 16 mile 8 chains
Waterloo to Epsom - 14 mile 18 chains

So it depends where you measure it from. Zone 6 is considerably wider than 2 miles at just about every point on the circle. You are right though, Epsom will not be in zone 6.

I was measuring the distance from the edge of London to Epsom rather than the distance from the centre but agree your point about Zone 6 being a greater distance from the central London termini in some places than others.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

MikeWh, can you confirm if a start date for the Oyster extension to Welwyn Garden City has been communicated officially by TfL ? Or is this whole thread based on rumour?

 

[Aictos]

MikeWh, can you confirm if a start date for the Oyster extension to Welwyn Garden City has been communicated officially by TfL ? Or is this whole thread based on rumour?

Is this enough for you? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-46397470

Def not a rumour and as far as I'm aware, today was mentioned as a possible date for Oyster to go live at these stations.

 

[jon0844]

MikeWh, can you confirm if a start date for the Oyster extension to Welwyn Garden City has been communicated officially by TfL ? Or is this whole thread based on rumour?

I was told very soon to Hertford North but the autumn for WGC. Not sure why the delay, but it is definitely not happening all at once for GN users.

One thing that IS certain is that it is happening.

 

[A Challenge]

According to Surrey Live the oyster extension to Epsom will be happening (despite a previous article saying that TfL had said there was nothing confirmed despite staff saying it would happen), some time in early 2019.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ge...nt-transport-extend-oyster-epsom-15485989.amp

Department for Transport extend Oyster to Epsom but ticket prices won't get cheaper
The Oyster and pay-as-you-go system will be make access to the capital "even easier for commuters"

Confirmation from the DfT on Friday (November 30) comes two days after Transport Secretary Chris Grayling, who is also MP for Epsom and Ewell, announced the change to his constituents.

Barriers will be upgraded in early 2019, and is said to mark the delivery of a promise by train operator Govia Thameslink (GTR) to extend contactless facilities.