GN Class 717

[SteveOfTheStow]

Forgive my ignorance put what do you class as off-side?

Welham Green type stations or Brookmans park type stations?

I believe it's the case where the driver is sitting in the standard position on the left of the cab, but the platform is on the right. Drayton Park would be another example.

 

[Class455]

According to another forum, 313026 has become the first casualty to the incoming 717's. It has been withdrawn as its due an exam which GTR are not willing to undertake and will now be used as a spare parts donor to keep the other 313's going.

 

[samuelmorris]

A bold move if none of the diagrams are assigned to 717 duty yet...

 

[SeaKing]

As


As of 14:00 this afternoon it was stabled on the Country End of 5 Road within Hornsey Depot.

Many thanks I saw it there just before midday yesterday.

 

[Failed Unit]

I believe it's the case where the driver is sitting in the standard position on the left of the cab, but the platform is on the right. Drayton Park would be another example.

Ok so Harringey, Hornsey (both depending on direction). Brookmans Park, Bowes Park and Brookmans Park. (Hertford?)

Most other on the WGC branch are 8 coaches so hopefully ok.

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

Ok so Harringey, Hornsey (both depending on direction). Brookmans Park, Bowes Park and Brookmans Park. (Hertford?)

Most other on the WGC branch are 8 coaches so hopefully ok.

I assume that the sloped front of the 717s is the cause of the sighting issues versus the flat front of the 313s.

Bowes Park is the odd one out - the preview trains have been calling there. But it's a long platform - would definitely have taken 8 car trains once upon a time (though part of it is out of use now), so maybe they've been lucky and no work is required there in spite of.
Drayton Park has assisted dispatch from what I see when I go through - may be the reason why it's ok too?

Essex Road and Old Street also an issue, hence no preview services stopping there. Highbury & Islington southbound too.


Edit: Unfortunate that this hasn't been resolved yet as clearly we're entering the sharp downturn on the bathtub, with 313s starting to be retired. One would hope that despite the 717s not entering full service yet, they're being shaken down for issues so that when they do come in there'll be confidence that they can replace the 313s on diagrams fault-free.

 

[petersi]

According to another forum, 313026 has become the first casualty to the incoming 717's. It has been withdrawn as its due an exam which GTR are not willing to undertake and will now be used as a spare parts donor to keep the other 313's going.

Are the inner Great Nortthern services going to be like the globlin line reduction of service as train lease expire. Me being to pessimistic the plan B would be to run reduced serverice to Kings Cross
though the cause is slightly different as it un economic to keep the old trains in service

until The ORR approve the use 717 in full passenger use there can be no date for their introduction

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

Are the inner Great Nortthern services going to be like the globlin line reduction of service as train lease expire
though the cause is slightly different as it un economic to keep the old trains in service

until The ORR approve the use 717 in full passenger use there can be no date for their introduction

Not quite the same. Unit availability will definitely be affected, but the GOBLIN suffered from having less than 10 units. GN has over 40 that are formed into 3 and 6 car trains. As long as the rest don't start falling down in quick succession, the loss of one will be a frustration but shouldn't reduce the service, except for possibly short forming. It depends on whether Hornsey think they can rotate the remaining units a bit more quickly. Given each day a unit seems to fail though, I'm not optimistic there won't be a visible impact, but it'll be short forming first.

On the 717s, the ORR isn't a problem - the trains can run in passenger service. But the unions are currently ensuring that their members can self-dispatch safely from stations where the platform is on the opposite side to the driving position (i.e. the right side in the direction of travel). The different cab shape is causing some difficulties with existing infrastructure AIUI from previous posts in this thread. Once this is resolved, the trains will be able to start diagrams in earnest.

 

[Failed Unit]

I assume that the sloped front of the 717s is the cause of the sighting issues versus the flat front of the 313s.

Bowes Park is the odd one out - the preview trains have been calling there. But it's a long platform - would definitely have taken 8 car trains once upon a time (though part of it is out of use now), so maybe they've been lucky and no work is required there in spite of.
Drayton Park has assisted dispatch from what I see when I go through - may be the reason why it's ok too?

Essex Road and Old Street also an issue, hence no preview services stopping there. Highbury & Islington southbound too.


Edit: Unfortunate that this hasn't been resolved yet as clearly we're entering the sharp downturn on the bathtub, with 313s starting to be retired. One would hope that despite the 717s not entering full service yet, they're being shaken down for issues so that when they do come in there'll be confidence that they can replace the 313s on diagrams fault-free.

Ok.

I wonder if once they have NCL sorted if they can just run fast on the stations that can’t accept them. I know I am not a fan of missing stops but missing Brookmans park for example is better than cancelling an entire train. The 313s are on “gaffer tape and chewing gum” repairs. So it looks like they may need controversial decisions to get them in service.

 

[petersi]

On the 717s, the ORR isn't a problem - the trains can run in passenger service. But the unions are currently ensuring that their members can self-dispatch safely from stations where the platform is on the opposite side to the driving position (i.e. the right side in the direction of travel). The different cab shape is causing some difficulties with existing infrastructure AIUI from previous posts in this thread. Once this is resolved, the trains will be able to start diagrams in earnest.

Has the safety case for SDO got ORR approval on the NCL. or is it not required ?
(I ask this as its underground. I know about the northern line proper but just because it allowed there does not mean it will be allowed in different situations)

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

Has the safety case for SDO got ORR approval on the NCL. or is it not required ?
(I ask this as its underground. I know about the northern line proper but just because it allowed there does not mean it will be allowed in different situations)

Ah, wasn't aware of this. I was thinking of ORR approval for the stock itself, like the 710s are struggling with atm.

 

[Bikeman78]

According to another forum, 313026 has become the first casualty to the incoming 717's. It has been withdrawn as its due an exam which GTR are not willing to undertake and will now be used as a spare parts donor to keep the other 313's going.

Doesn't surprise me. 313026 was a bit of a heap years ago. I think it had an AC only restriction for months. It was a regular on the Royston peak trains and on one occasion it expired on me at Welwyn Garden City. It wasn't long before they stopped running to Royston. Fortunately I was able to make it back for one more trip.

 

[BowesRanger]

Am I wrong to be worried that this introduction has major fiasco written all over it?

I mean with the 313s now no longer being seriously maintained, and starting to die at an increasing rate, while the 717s aren't really that close to being cleared for general use, how far off are we from major disruption?

If it really fell over for a couple of months, it would be chaos, I guess not dissimilar to losing the Waterloo and city line.

 

[petersi]

Am I wrong to be worried that this introduction has major fiasco written all over it?

I mean with the 313s now no longer being seriously maintained, and starting to die at an increasing rate, while the 717s aren't really that close to being cleared for general use, how far off are we from major disruption?

If it really fell over for a couple of months, it would be chaos, I guess not dissimilar to losing the Waterloo and city line.

I think my thoughts have been to pessimistic. I think you could have set up like some services to Kings cross (as Moorgate May not be able to cope with all old streets traffic)plus some southbound non stop to Moorgate and then preview pattern back to Finsbury Park so may not be great but somethings

 

[BlyRF]

Just on one of my late evenings from work I arrived at H&I from Victoria line and throught I’ll sit down on the bench on the NCL platform for a bit, and then to my grand surprise my first 717 sighting passing and stopping for a brief moment, but doors didn’t open for passenger and had the destination Hornsey.

Soon it left in a rather quick and very fast acceleration manner and very smooth too. Usually with the 313s the vibration and loud clanking they make upon arriving and leaving but the 717s are just truly bliss .

Also noticed the northbound signal seems brighter, is it a sudden new installation? Can’t be right?

But yes truly a grand sighting, can’t wait for these darlings to start

 

[jon0844]

Ok.

I wonder if once they have NCL sorted if they can just run fast on the stations that can’t accept them. I know I am not a fan of missing stops but missing Brookmans park for example is better than cancelling an entire train. The 313s are on “gaffer tape and chewing gum” repairs. So it looks like they may need controversial decisions to get them in service.

You can be the one to let Grant Shapps know he's losing all services!

 

[Failed Unit]

You can be the one to let Grant Shapps know he's losing all services!

It would be a pleasure. The rail industry is covering itself in glory on new train introductions recently. I know you can’t pre-empt everything, but just seems a bit late in the day to find out about some of these things.

 

[717001]

717 stop boards have been installed at Hatfield - slightly back from the 700 / 313 ones

 

[Aictos]

Ok so Harringey, Hornsey (both depending on direction). Brookmans Park, Bowes Park and Brookmans Park. (Hertford?)

Most other on the WGC branch are 8 coaches so hopefully ok.

Hertford shouldn't be a issue as doors open on the drivers side of the train when the train in question uses Platform 1 or 2 however the only platform which would be a issue is Platform 3 as doors open to the opposite side to the driver upon arrival from south of the station.

Below are the stations I would say have these issues.

Affected Up Slow
Welwyn Garden City (Platform 1 during departures only)
Brookmans Park
Potters Bar
New Barnet to New Southgate
Gordon Hill (Platform 1 during departures only)
Bowes Park
Alexandra Palace (Platform 2 only)
Hornsey
Finsbury Park (Platform 1 only)
Drayton Park to Old Street
Moorgate (Platform 10 only)

Affected Down Slow
Moorgate (Platform 9 during departures only)
Old Street to Drayton Park
Finsbury Park (Platform 8 only)
Harringay
Alexandra Palace (Platform 4 only)
Bowes Park
New Southgate to New Barnet
Potters Bar
Brookmans Park
Hatfield
Welwyn Garden City (Platform 4 only)

 

[gm671]

Deleted

 

[Failed Unit]

Hertford shouldn't be a issue as doors open on the drivers side of the train when the train in question uses Platform 1 or 2 however the only platform which would be a issue is Platform 3 as doors open to the opposite side to the driver upon arrival from south of the station.

Below are the stations I would say have these issues.

Affected Up Slow
Welwyn Garden City (Platform 1 during departures only)
Brookmans Park
Potters Bar
New Barnet to New Southgate
Gordon Hill (Platform 1 during departures only)
Bowes Park
Alexandra Palace (Platform 2 only)
Hornsey
Finsbury Park (Platform 1 only)
Drayton Park to Old Street
Moorgate (Platform 10 only)

Affected Down Slow
Moorgate (Platform 9 during departures only)
Old Street to Drayton Park
Finsbury Park (Platform 8 only)
Harringay
Alexandra Palace (Platform 4 only)
Bowes Park
New Southgate to New Barnet
Potters Bar
Brookmans Park
Hatfield
Welwyn Garden City (Platform 4 only)

The majority of the stations you mention can already accommodate 8 car trains, so I suspect the solution is very simple and doesn’t require SDO (I hope) it would be very embarrassing at WGC for example on platform 4 if a 8 car 700 can and a 6 car 717 can’t. (Although to be pendantic platform 3 will be the issue going south)

 

[jon0844]

The majority of the stations you mention can already accommodate 8 car trains, so I suspect the solution is very simple and doesn’t require SDO (I hope) it would be very embarrassing at WGC for example on platform 4 if a 8 car 700 can and a 6 car 717 can’t. (Although to be pendantic platform 3 will be the issue going south)

The 717 stop board going north at platform 4 is already placed well back on its own post. Southbound on platform 2 (which will hardly ever be used) has also been relocated from its original position - now on the corner of a shelter.

 

[Aictos]

The majority of the stations you mention can already accommodate 8 car trains, so I suspect the solution is very simple and doesn’t require SDO (I hope) it would be very embarrassing at WGC for example on platform 4 if a 8 car 700 can and a 6 car 717 can’t. (Although to be pendantic platform 3 will be the issue going south)

Which is why I listed the stations as I did although I did forget about WGC Platform 3 heading south

 

[jon0844]

Which is why I listed the stations as I did although I did forget about WGC Platform 3 heading south

The 717 stop board at WGC on platform 3 (in the up direction) looks far enough back to see the signal on the right hand side. Plenty of 717s have stopped there for testing so I'd hope it's all okay, as only one board was moved (the above mentioned one on platform 2).

I have wondered about the distance between each board, as if a train comes in from Moorgate on platform 4, and stops at the northbound board that is set back, to change back to a Moorgate train, will it be at the correct position for that board?

 

[Class315]

I don't know where you have got this from but this is not the case. Every platform has been looked individually and SDO5 is only being used where necessary. Where stopping short for signal sighting resulting in SDO5 it creates other issues in itself, which is one of the key issues on the NCL.

Yes every platform has been looked at individually, I’m thoroughly aware of that. However the company have acknowledge the potential risk of stopping short and have now come to agreement about the method i previously aforementioned, I’m not going to post the exact literature here as it contains some sensitive company information.
But my source is a very credible & reliable, thanks all the same!

 

[MatthewRead]

So are these units running to Welwyn Garden City or is it just the Hertford loop? Because I'm planning to go looking for them again tomorrow.

 

[Bikeman78]

Am I wrong to be worried that this introduction has major fiasco written all over it?

I mean with the 313s now no longer being seriously maintained, and starting to die at an increasing rate, while the 717s aren't really that close to being cleared for general use, how far off are we from major disruption?

What sort of faults are the 313s having? Doors, motors or something in the cabs? With most of them running in pairs, any persistantly dodgy cabs should be easy to bury. Some of the 365s ran around for months with multi only restrictions so Hornsey are well used to it.

 

[jon0844]

All sorts of issues. Cab problems, doors, motors, air/compressor problems. You name it.

As you say, they can probably manage until exam time and then it's game over.

 

[prod_pep]

Everything seemed to run fine on Thursday 07/02, with all booked 313 workings as planned. The trio of unused units were 313048, 313058 and, of course, 313026. The latter two were visibly stabled in sidings at the back of Hornsey depot. I've never rated 026 as a favourite 313, but it's still sad if it has gone before any 717s have entered full service. The GN 313s are well past their best, but I'll really miss them.

Speaking of which, 717012 was on the 1437 MOG-GDH preview service. I had a ride and although a lot more modern and generally quieter than the 313s it was, there was still a pronounced wheelflat and some rather irritating 'clanking' sounds under the floor. I'm not hugely convinced about the build quality of these and the 700s. The seats were, as to be expected, awful, and most of the internal displays weren't working properly.

 

[Aictos]

Well with regards to the seats they could always put the 3+2 seating in from the Class 313s and reuse them in the Class 717s... Save money etc...

Seriously though, nothing wrong with the seats as being 2+2 and having much more standing room the new Class 717s are a worthwhile replacement for the dinosaurs that are Class 313s.