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Greater Manchester Combined Authority: Latest transport strategy draft publication

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yorksrob

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That detour is for most people more than offset by the fact that the tram goes where they want to go and not half a mile away from it on the periphery.

That's why we have buses which stop every three minutes. Railways are there to move us around the country at some element of speed.
 

radamfi

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That's why we have buses which stop every three minutes. Railways are there to move us around the country at some element of speed.

This is Britain where buses are irrelevant. For most practical purposes we can assume the withdrawal of all buses outside London. Therefore we need public transport that is fast enough to cover ground quick enough to attract car users but also stop frequently enough so that buses are not required for connection.
 

Bletchleyite

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That's why we have buses which stop every three minutes. Railways are there to move us around the country at some element of speed.

Railways have lots of purposes, only one of which is to do that. The purpose of VTWC is to do that. The purpose of a Tring stopper, for example, is to take a load of commuters to and from London as efficiently as possible. Speed is of relatively low relevance, and if the line to Tring was built specifically for that purpose and not just because Tring happened to be on the way to Birmingham, you can be sure it'd have been a low-speed double-track line a bit more like the Chiltern or indeed the vast majority of other lines around London.

The purpose of the local lines around Manchester, which the lines via Atherton and Westhoughton to Wigan certainly are, is to shift as many people as possible into and out of Manchester in order to reduce the number of people in cars. The fast service from Wigan to Manchester runs via Chat Moss, which is more suitable due to there being only two intermediate stations, one of which is also served by the far more popular (despite being rather slower) tram.

The purpose of buses is, in an ideal world, to take people to their local railhead. For fairly obvious reasons, bussing people around central Manchester is not quite as viable. Yes, there's the Centrelink or whatever it's called, but if every rail passenger going to Manchester city centre started piling on, it wouldn't even nearly cope. That exists more as a facility for those for whom walking is more difficult.
 

edwin_m

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This is Britain where buses are irrelevant. For most practical purposes we can assume the withdrawal of all buses outside London. Therefore we need public transport that is fast enough to cover ground quick enough to attract car users but also stop frequently enough so that buses are not required for connection.
There are still more bus journeys made than train journeys, though trains account for more passenger-miles. Buses still carry large numbers of people in most of our cities and the likes of Nottingham and Edinburgh have shown decline isn't inevitable. If there were no buses a lot of people wouldn't be able to get to the station!
 

radamfi

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There are still more bus journeys made than train journeys, though trains account for more passenger-miles. Buses still carry large numbers of people in most of our cities and the likes of Nottingham and Edinburgh have shown decline isn't inevitable. If there were no buses a lot of people wouldn't be able to get to the station!

But presumably the vast majority of those bus journeys (outside London and a few cities where cars are hard to use, such as Oxford and Edinburgh) are by people who don't have a car available. Bus mode split in most places outside London is very low.

It would be interesting to know what percentage of people outside London use the bus to get to the station.
 

yorksrob

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This is Britain where buses are irrelevant. For most practical purposes we can assume the withdrawal of all buses outside London. Therefore we need public transport that is fast enough to cover ground quick enough to attract car users but also stop frequently enough so that buses are not required for connection.

Railways have lots of purposes, only one of which is to do that. The purpose of VTWC is to do that. The purpose of a Tring stopper, for example, is to take a load of commuters to and from London as efficiently as possible. Speed is of relatively low relevance, and if the line to Tring was built specifically for that purpose and not just because Tring happened to be on the way to Birmingham, you can be sure it'd have been a low-speed double-track line a bit more like the Chiltern or indeed the vast majority of other lines around London.

The purpose of the local lines around Manchester, which the lines via Atherton and Westhoughton to Wigan certainly are, is to shift as many people as possible into and out of Manchester in order to reduce the number of people in cars. The fast service from Wigan to Manchester runs via Chat Moss, which is more suitable due to there being only two intermediate stations, one of which is also served by the far more popular (despite being rather slower) tram.

The purpose of buses is, in an ideal world, to take people to their local railhead. For fairly obvious reasons, bussing people around central Manchester is not quite as viable. Yes, there's the Centrelink or whatever it's called, but if every rail passenger going to Manchester city centre started piling on, it wouldn't even nearly cope. That exists more as a facility for those for whom walking is more difficult.

Whilst I recognise that we're not talking InterCity speeds, I value the relatively swift run into Manchester from Atherton. Infact, the line strikes me as being very well suited to what it does. You have a number of largish towns which rely quite heavily on Manchester and which require a swift direct public transport link there. This would be ruined if the train suddenly went off and did a fifteen minute detour somewhere.

As it is, the route is ideal for a swift journey to Manchester as it is for one in the other direction via Wigan ( yes, those towns generate plenty of people going in the other direction as well).

Don't ruin it GMPTE.
 

Mogster

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Whilst I recognise that we're not talking InterCity speeds, I value the relatively swift run into Manchester from Atherton. Infact, the line strikes me as being very well suited to what it does. You have a number of largish towns which rely quite heavily on Manchester and which require a swift direct public transport link there. This would be ruined if the train suddenly went off and did a fifteen minute detour somewhere.

As it is, the route is ideal for a swift journey to Manchester as it is for one in the other direction via Wigan ( yes, those towns generate plenty of people going in the other direction as well).

Don't ruin it GMPTE.

Yes, Atherton just needs modern signalling arrangements and new stock.
 

Jozhua

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But presumably the vast majority of those bus journeys (outside London and a few cities where cars are hard to use, such as Oxford and Edinburgh) are by people who don't have a car available. Bus mode split in most places outside London is very low.

It would be interesting to know what percentage of people outside London use the bus to get to the station.

A lot of people are unable to afford, or capable of driving a car. Buses also offer a valuable way of reducing congestion in major cities. Passing the driving test on busy UK roads, especially in built up areas can be very difficult...

When done right, buses can be a fantastic means of transport. However, companies like Stagecoach, First and Arriva generally offer very uninspiring, badly run and somewhat overpriced services. I have used a Nottingham based Trent Barton bus to get to my local station plenty of times!
 

radamfi

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When done right, buses can be a fantastic means of transport. However, companies like Stagecoach, First and Arriva generally offer very uninspiring, badly run and somewhat overpriced services.

That's the point. In many other countries and in London, buses are considered a usable form of transport and some people with cars will use buses. But Britain outside London has had deregulation which means that buses are a lost cause and so have little or no place in congestion reduction like in other countries. So we have to work on the basis of no buses.
 

edwin_m

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That's the point. In many other countries and in London, buses are considered a usable form of transport and some people with cars will use buses. But Britain outside London has had deregulation which means that buses are a lost cause and so have little or no place in congestion reduction like in other countries. So we have to work on the basis of no buses.
And Greater Manchester is also looking at re-regulating the buses. In my view (others may and wil disagree) this is essential to allow integrated transport and make the best use of the more costly rail-based proposals.
 

radamfi

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And Greater Manchester is also looking at re-regulating the buses.

That won't happen. There have already been long delays in getting it up and running. Tyne and Wear and West Yorkshire have already tried and failed.
 

urbophile

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That won't happen. There have already been long delays in getting it up and running. Tyne and Wear and West Yorkshire have already tried and failed.
Why have they failed? If it works in London why not elsewhere? Surely all it needs is strong politicians to stand up to the bus operators. Cities need a mix of interconnecting public transport to wean people off their cars and improve the environment, in all respects: uncongested roads, less polluted air, fewer deaths and injuries, etc.

London buses have never been deregulated (in the last 80 or so years anyway). Even so, when I lived there 20 years ago, the bus services by and large unimaginatively paralleled the rail and tube routes. In recent years there has been an increase of new routes providing cross-city links which had never happened before. All a matter of political vision and leaders with clout.
 

radamfi

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Why have they failed? If it works in London why not elsewhere? Surely all it needs is strong politicians to stand up to the bus operators.

If it was as a simple as that, why are we still waiting for things to happen? GM now even has an elected mayor and theoretical powers to implement franchising, yet we are still waiting.
 

edwin_m

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If it was as a simple as that, why are we still waiting for things to happen? GM now even has an elected mayor and theoretical powers to implement franchising, yet we are still waiting.
The Strategy says:
Following the Bus Services Act (2017), the GMCA asked TfGM to carry out an assessment of a bus franchising scheme. This includes consideration of other realistic options for reforming the bus market in Greater Manchester, in particular partnerships. The Vision for Bus has been developed into more detailed objectives and, as well as developing a model of franchising, has seen engagement with bus operators in Greater Manchester on what might be achieved through a partnership approach.

Following the completion of this assessment, and subject to the GMCA deciding to undertake an independent audit of the assessment, the GMCA will decide whether to proceed with a consultation on any proposed franchising scheme. Following the consultation, the Mayor will be able to use the powers provided by the Transport Act 2000 to make a decision on whether to introduce any proposed franchising scheme or not.
As with most things in transport it is subject to assessment, engagement, audit and consultation, all of which takes time. From this text it is clear that the aspiration is still there but it is not yet a commitment.
 

radamfi

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As with most things in transport it is subject to assessment, engagement, audit and consultation, all of which takes time. From this text it is clear that the aspiration is still there but it is not yet a commitment.

Aspiration is meaningless if it leads to nothing. The Tyne & Wear attempt was supposed to be a formality, and look what happened there. It has been about a decade since then and we are still waiting.
 

radamfi

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The end of deregulation was actually promised nearly 20 years ago, with Transport Act 2000. So we've been misled for that long. So we should no longer accept any further delay.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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This is Britain where buses are irrelevant. For most practical purposes we can assume the withdrawal of all buses outside London. Therefore we need public transport that is fast enough to cover ground quick enough to attract car users but also stop frequently enough so that buses are not required for connection.

I admire your bravery in making such a statement as this. I wonder as to the incurred costs of all the "irrelevant" bus replacement by other modes of public transport. Who do you propose to finance this somewhat startling scenario?
 

radamfi

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I admire your bravery in making such a statement as this. I wonder as to the incurred costs of all the "irrelevant" bus replacement by other modes of public transport. Who do you propose to finance this somewhat startling scenario?

I was saying that it is better to divert trams into town centres rather than relying on buses to connect into the rail network. Using buses as feeders works well in other countries, but Britain outside London has turned its back on the bus, so that option has been lost. Given that rail usage has dramatically increased in the last 20 years whilst bus usage has declined hugely, we can conclude that people are already finding other ways than the bus to access rail.

Trams are therefore the only option available that can stop frequently enough to maximise coverage while fast enough to cover ground. Buses would not be replaced as such, except where they overlap with current or planned tram lines. Private transport has already replaced buses in the overwhelming majority of cases.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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Using buses as feeders works well in other countries, but Britain outside London has turned its back on the bus, so that option has been lost.

Whilst I do reside exterior to "The Land of the TfGM Empire", when I do visit Manchester city centre core area, there seems a veritable plethora of buses, so if what you say is true of bus usage in 2019 being one that passengers have turned their back on, heaven only knows what the bus situation must have been in past days...o_O
 

radamfi

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Whilst I do reside exterior to "The Land of the TfGM Empire", when I do visit Manchester city centre core area, there seems a veritable plethora of buses, so if what you say is true of bus usage in 2019 being one that passengers have turned their back on, heaven only knows what the bus situation must have been in past days...o_O

Just because there are a lot of buses doesn't mean that usage is high. Britain probably has more buses than any other European country, maybe even if you exclude London, but we are all aware that bus usage is low, hence calls for franchising.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Just because there are a lot of buses doesn't mean that usage is high. Britain probably has more buses than any other European country, maybe even if you exclude London, but we are all aware that bus usage is low, hence calls for franchising.

Are you basing that statement on personal viewing of actual bus travel that you have made in recent times. I have been into the TfGM area last week and have made bus journeys in the areas of Salford, Manchester, Ashton-under-Lyne and Stockport in off-peak hours and each bus I caught was well patronised, with constant boarding and disembarking at intermediate stop areas.
 

Bletchleyite

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I don't think usage is the main reason to regulate in cities. The main reason to regulate is to stop modes competing with one another and instead set up a co-ordinated city network of public transport with one ticketing system for all of it.

Central Manchester would be so much nicer if it wasn't full of dirty, smelly diesel buses.
 

radamfi

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Are you basing that statement on personal viewing of actual bus travel that you have made in recent times. I have been into the TfGM area last week and have made bus journeys in the areas of Salford, Manchester, Ashton-under-Lyne and Stockport in off-peak hours and each bus I caught was well patronised, with constant boarding and disembarking at intermediate stop areas.

The DfT publish bus patronage statistics annually, in spreadsheet format, for each local authority or metropolitan county. Is it therefore easy to see the long term downward trend in bus patronage within Greater Manchester.

Obviously there has also been a long term trend of service cuts.
 
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Jozhua

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The DfT publish bus patronage statistics annually, in spreadsheet format, for each local authority or metropolitan county. Is it therefore easy to see the long term downward trend in bus patronage within Greater Manchester.

Obviously there has also been a long term trend of service cuts.

In the late evening, bus services out towards Salford seem to take a steep dive, when I finished work in the city center late in the evening, I'd typically wait for 20 minutes + and every bus was very overcrowded.
 

edwin_m

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I was saying that it is better to divert trams into town centres rather than relying on buses to connect into the rail network. Using buses as feeders works well in other countries, but Britain outside London has turned its back on the bus, so that option has been lost. Given that rail usage has dramatically increased in the last 20 years whilst bus usage has declined hugely, we can conclude that people are already finding other ways than the bus to access rail.

Trams are therefore the only option available that can stop frequently enough to maximise coverage while fast enough to cover ground. Buses would not be replaced as such, except where they overlap with current or planned tram lines. Private transport has already replaced buses in the overwhelming majority of cases.
The reasons trams are quicker than buses are to do with multiple doors and off-board fare collection, which could equally well be done with buses, and where they can use an off-street alignment which is only possible on a few routes and in GM most of those are Metrolink already. A tram replacing such a bus on the same street and making the same stops will be no quicker, and quite possibly slower due to things like speed restrictions on curved track. To be worth doing a tram needs to have good lengths of segregated alignment for quicker journeys, and enough passengers to allow fewer but larger vehicles to provide a decent frequency at a low operating cost per passenger.

Spending billions creating widespread street tram networks simply to avoid biting the bullet of re-regulating buses is simply bonkers - and won't work anyway because buses will continue to compete with the trams as they did in the early years in Sheffield. I agree we have been making a mess of bus services in the UK for many decades (going back well before deregulation) but that's not a reason to dismiss the most suitable means of providing the vital "last mile" (or two or three) of a comprehensive public transport network. On the occasions where operators do get things right bus routes can prosper - look at Nottingham - but the current legal framework means that isn't possible on the majority of the network.
 

radamfi

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Spending billions creating widespread street tram networks simply to avoid biting the bullet of re-regulating buses is simply bonkers - and won't work anyway because buses will continue to compete with the trams as they did in the early years in Sheffield. I agree we have been making a mess of bus services in the UK for many decades (going back well before deregulation) but that's not a reason to dismiss the most suitable means of providing the vital "last mile" (or two or three) of a comprehensive public transport network. On the occasions where operators do get things right bus routes can prosper - look at Nottingham - but the current legal framework means that isn't possible on the majority of the network.

The legal framework won't change, though. We've waited 20 years now so forget that. I'm not advocating a huge tram building programme, just build the ones that are on the current wish list. Cycling/e-bikes and shared taxis (especially once autonomous vehicles become available) are the next best options available. Buses will become uneconomic if cycling and shared taxis become the main non-private car options.
 
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