The problems with using the Eurostar trains.

[anme]

During the week, I'd agree, but I suspect they could fill later trains at the weekend - on Saturday, in particular, I'd have thought there would be a potential day trip market?

The last train from Paris to London on a Saturday is at 20:13, and from Brussels at 20:22. Compare with the last train from Manchester to London this Saturday which is at 20:35, and from Leeds at 20:15. All very similar.

There doesn't seem to be much demand for Intercity trains to London later on a Saturday evening.

 

[sprunt]

The last train from Paris to London on a Saturday is at 20:13, and from Brussels at 20:22. Compare with the last train from Manchester to London this Saturday which is at 20:35, and from Leeds at 20:15. All very similar.

There doesn't seem to be much demand for Intercity trains to London later on a Saturday evening.

Fair point, but I have heard complaints about how early domestic inter-city trains stop as well. And I may be letting logic slip too, but there's just something a bit more exciting about a day trip to another country, and if I were going to Paris for the day I'd probably want to eat there in the evening before coming back.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It does, though, provide a financial incentive for the operator to deliver the service as advertised. To downgrade or abolish it just removes the penalty, likely leading to poorer service in the long term.

This is true, and I must admit that I am much more inclined to claim Delay Repay in order to slap an operator for poor handling of a situation than because of the relatively small financial gain to myself. In particular there is some pleasure in claiming a very small Delay Repay sum because I know it'll cost the TOC a lot more to process it in administrative costs than the sum it actually entails.

For instance, I would typically not bother claiming if the cause was a suicide or other similar external event unless it was poorly-handled. I did for instance take great pleasure in giving VTWC a several-hundred-quid slap for the appalling handling of the initial problems caused by severe snowfall in the North a few years ago, where the situation at Preston was way out of control due to nothing short of gross incompetence on the part of the staff there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The last train from Paris to London on a Saturday is at 20:13, and from Brussels at 20:22. Compare with the last train from Manchester to London this Saturday which is at 20:35, and from Leeds at 20:15. All very similar.

There doesn't seem to be much demand for Intercity trains to London later on a Saturday evening.

I think with most IC lines an arrival at around 2300-0000 in time to go to bed for a proper night's kip is the end of the majority of the demand. From London is a bit different because of things like shows, I suppose. Most people just have no interest in arriving somewhere at 3am.

 

[anme]

Fair point, but I have heard complaints about how early domestic inter-city trains stop as well. And I may be letting logic slip too, but there's just something a bit more exciting about a day trip to another country, and if I were going to Paris for the day I'd probably want to eat there in the evening before coming back.

Indeed it would be a pity not to eat in Paris. I think the problem is that there isn't much demand for longer distance weekend day trips like this. Most people will spend at least one night away if they are travelling so far.

I may or may not be representative, but I have been on dozens, maybe hundreds of this kind of city trip around the UK and Europe, and I can only think of one occasion when I returned the same day. And my clearest memory of that trip is being tired and regretting not spending the night!

 

[Bletchleyite]

User1234 mentioned DB so I did a quick comparison between ES and Brussels-Frankfurt (high-speed line, similar distance and frequency) for a same day return.
ES today £318, Saturday £208 upwards
DB EUR258 (walk-up), Saturday EUR190/210 (the cheaper fare is non-refundable, the other is refundable less an admin fee, and both are Advances with no seat reservation).

So - DB is a good bit cheaper today but not on Saturday.
(Offpeak Returns at single fare are one of the distinctive features of UK ticketing, and I can't think of any European mainland equivalent for inter-city travel).

Brussels-Frankfurt is not a good comparison because while DB operate on the route it is operated and priced on the SNCF model. A domestic German route might be a better comparison, and I think you'd find the Normalpreis to be a bit more reasonable - somewhere between a UK Anytime and Off Peak, the key difference between DB and the UK system being no walk-up off-peak fares which, as you say, are only a local city transport thing in most other countries (e.g. on Hamburg's system a day ticket is cheaper after 9am).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Please do not take this as a personal attack, it is more of an amused observation based on your posting history-
I have a very hard time believing that you would wake up on a Saturday morning and even consider the idea of a daytrip to Paris or Brussels for leisure ("Oh there's a fantastic exhibition at Beaubourg, let's go there!"), as you seem to have nothing but disgust for both cities...

I don't mind Brussels, it's a bit mucky but it is at least interesting - the bit I'm usually very critical of is the utter rathole surrounding the station itself and the state of the through line and its stations which are all a bit Birmingham New St pre-refurb[1]. I am indeed no fan of Paris at all, but it's not out of the question that I might take a day trip to Bruges or something (Or Lille, or Calais, or whatever).

[1] But then the state of, say, Manchester Victoria (which is a nasty station in the extreme these days), is not a reason not to go to Manchester.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I notice you haven't focused any criticism on the inferior quality of their new rolling stock, which is another favourite here. I found it amazingly mediocre, with totally useless WiFi, cheap interior and poor quality fittings and fixtures. Ride quality was also remarkably poor on LGV Nord but I suspect that has less to do with Eurostar's train.

The Velaro (ICE3) is a good, solid piece of rolling stock, but I do agree that Eurostar have given it an utterly horrid interior. Why they couldn't have specified the much nicer (but no lower density) DB interior I have absolutely no idea. OK, the wood might not have been possible due to stringent fire regulations, but they could have still had the glass, chrome etc, the nicer lighting and the better seats. Even the tables are rubbish because they extend down and take your knee space.

I think the Class 800 interior is nicer (particularly the planned LNER version with the red seats) and that, as you know, is really saying something.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It doesn't sound especially early to me - I aim to arrive 30 minutes before any long distance train journey I'm making.

I do too (well, at MKC it's usually more like 20), but I don't spend it checking in or waiting in a lounge with awful facilities, I spend it sorting myself out for the journey with e.g. a cup of tea and an M&S sandwich.

 

[43096]

This is true, and I must admit that I am much more inclined to claim Delay Repay in order to slap an operator for poor handling of a situation than because of the relatively small financial gain to myself. In particular there is some pleasure in claiming a very small Delay Repay sum because I know it'll cost the TOC a lot more to process it in administrative costs than the sum it actually entails.

For instance, I would typically not bother claiming if the cause was a suicide or other similar external event unless it was poorly-handled. I did for instance take great pleasure in giving VTWC a several-hundred-quid slap for the appalling handling of the initial problems caused by severe snowfall in the North a few years ago, where the situation at Preston was way out of control due to nothing short of gross incompetence on the part of the staff there.

With regard to suicide incidents, LNER give the option to donate delay repay refunds to the CALM charity, a move that is very much to be welcomed.

I have taken delight in slapping SWR for some Delay Repay 15 claims for negligible amounts on principle - the way they rolled it out for season ticket holders (and stopped using void days) and didn’t tell people was a disgrace.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed it would be a pity not to eat in Paris. I think the problem is that there isn't much demand for longer distance weekend day trips like this. Most people will spend at least one night away if they are travelling so far.

I may or may not be representative, but I have been on dozens, maybe hundreds of this kind of city trip around the UK and Europe, and I can only think of one occasion when I returned the same day. And my clearest memory of that trip is being tired and regretting not spending the night!

That's a fair point, and with Travelodge, Premier Inn, booking.com, Airbnb etc that is much easier. The main reason I used to do a lot of long day trips was that booking a hotel was a faff involving telephoning round B&Bs. Now it's 5 minutes on the Web and off you go, you can even do it on the way as it's unlikely, except when there's a major event, that *everywhere* will be fully booked in a larger city.

 

[sprunt]

I think with most IC lines an arrival at around 2300-0000 in time to go to bed for a proper night's kip is the end of the majority of the demand. From London is a bit different because of things like shows, I suppose. Most people just have no interest in arriving somewhere at 3am.

The beauty of Eurostar is that, inbound to the UK, it's possible to combine a relatively late departure with just this outcome - a 22:00 departure from Paris will be in London well before midnight.

 

[anme]

I do too (well, at MKC it's usually more like 20), but I don't spend it checking in or waiting in a lounge with awful facilities, I spend it sorting myself out for the journey with e.g. a cup of tea and an M&S sandwich.

How do you suggest Eurostar improve this? Maybe they can close down in London and run their trains to somewhere that doesn’t need security and immigration controls.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How do you suggest Eurostar improve this? Maybe they can close down in London and run their trains to somewhere that doesn’t need security and immigration controls.

One thing they could do, given that they can't change the security thing, is to seek to improve the range of facilities in the lounge to include a full airport-style range of food provisions and the likes rather than just a third-rate coffee thing. An M&S Food would be a good addition, even a small one.

 

[yorkie]

Why do Eurostar make it so difficult and inconvenient to use their services! Its like they forget that they are a train company running short two hour train rides and are just trying to run their operations like an airline instead!

their competitors are airlines; they have a captive market and a premium product and they know that flexible fares attract a huge premium that some people are willing to pay for. This is all intentional and by design. They will not change their ways because it's profitable to operate in the way they are operating.

 

[30907]

Brussels-Frankfurt is not a good comparison because while DB operate on the route it is operated and priced on the SNCF model. A domestic German route might be a better comparison, and I think you'd find the Normalpreis to be a bit more reasonable - somewhere between a UK Anytime and Off Peak, the key difference between DB and the UK system being no walk-up off-peak fares which, as you say, are only a local city transport thing in most other countries (e.g. on Hamburg's system a day ticket is cheaper after 9am).

I don't understand your point about the SNCF model - there are no reservation-only trains on the route, and the ticket offer is pretty much the same as any other DB route.
Anyway, here's the slightly shorter, also mostly high speed, route to Hannover:
Walk-up ICE fares average EUR 192, so a bit over 10% cheaper per km than Brussels.
Sparpreis 96/110 Saturday, so 40% cheaper than Brussels, essentially because there are dirt cheap fares on evening trains, as DB operate virtually a full timetable to close of service these days - unlike ES.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't understand your point about the SNCF model - there are no reservation-only trains on the route, and the ticket offer is pretty much the same as any other DB route.

Sorry, my error - I was thinking of Paris to Frankfurt, where the full SNCF model does apply - the DB trains on that route are TGVs in ICE clothing with the complete French model - demand pricing, compulsory reservation, free food in 1st rather than a restaurant.

 

[AlexNL]

there are no reservation-only trains on the route,

Deutsche Bahn's ICE Sprinter services used to be reservation only, but as of the December 2015 timetable change this is no longer the case.

 

[30907]

Sorry, my error - I was thinking of Paris to Frankfurt, where the full SNCF model does apply - the DB trains on that route are TGVs in ICE clothing with the complete French model - demand pricing, compulsory reservation, free food in 1st rather than a restaurant.

Or sometimes TGVs in TGV clothing. And IIRC SNCF and DB charge differently at times!

Deutsche Bahn's ICE Sprinter services used to be reservation only, but as of the December 2015 timetable change this is no longer the case.

And doesn't run to Brussels anyway.

 

[paddington]

Various government regulations mean that Eurostar, like an airline or ferry, has to have an accurate passenger list.
Hence the personalised check-in procedure and no last minute changes.

This is true, but Eurostar doesn't actually do this, since you don't present ID to Eurostar and it is not matched to your ticket. In fact if you arrived early enough it would be easy to get on an earlier train than you have booked (or even to the other destination). Yes, everyone has a booked seat, but you don't have to sit in it at any time.

One thing they could do, given that they can't change the security thing, is to seek to improve the range of facilities in the lounge to include a full airport-style range of food provisions and the likes rather than just a third-rate coffee thing. An M&S Food would be a good addition, even a small one.

I think they want to subliminally make repeat travellers not enter "airside" too early, given the limited space. There are plenty of facilities in St Pancras "landside" (I think even an M&S Food) and as there is no problem bringing your purchases through Eurostar security does it really matter that the "airside" facilities are not good?

When I use Eurostar I tend to have passed immigration 5-10 minutes before boarding is ready, which I generally use to go to the toilet (if anything can be improved it is the toilet facilities).

Despite the unreliability of Thameslink I have never seen the need to go through security so early that I would make use of any airport-style range of food provisions, I'm happy to eat something outside if I have time to spare.

 

[SHD]

Or sometimes TGVs in TGV clothing. And IIRC SNCF and DB charge differently at times

Normally, Duplex TGVs operate on the Paris-Stuttgart route and ICE on the Paris-Frankfurt route. This allows our German friends to enjoy the Neubaustrecke landscape from the upper deck of a Duplex!

It is true that all Alleo (the SNCF/DB cooperations) trains operate on a compulsory reservation basis. However, unless I am mistaken, Frankfurt-Paris ICEs have the typical Bordbistro for travelers who fancy sausages and beers. (1)

The Velaro (ICE3) is a good, solid piece of rolling stock, but I do agree that Eurostar have given it an utterly horrid interior.

At the risk of sounding chauvin, even though the Velaro/ICE3 is a good train overall, it is not on par with trains based on the TGV design when it comes to dynamic stability and comfort at high speed. The TGV bogie & suspension design, which was improved in the mid-1980s after the first few years of operational service, provides an extremely smooth ride. This is particularly impressive on Duplex TGVs, considering the height of trailers.

In addition, in their early years, the operational record of ICE 3 train sets on French-style 25 kV LGVs with ballast-laid track was abysmal. Simply abysmal. Remember that Eurostar suffered a 2-year delay before they could enter service.

(1) I know that the on-board food selection on TGVs is terrible... but I cannot say I am impressed by the stuff available in DB trains.

 

[SHD]

There are plenty of facilities in St Pancras "landside" (I think even an M&S Food) and as there is no problem bringing your purchases through Eurostar security does it really matter that the "airside" facilities are not good?

There most certainly is a M&S food at St Pancras. Before M&S made its comeback to Paris a few years ago, I used the St Pancras shop as my purveyor of last-minute British delicacies when going back home!

There is also a neat Fortnum&Mason’s.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

ES's passenger volumes continue to grow. That wouldn't be happening if the service really was as bad as some of the commentators here describe it. The security and compulsory reservations stuff just comes with the tunnel, not much to be done there. The biggest drawback IMHO is the cramped nature of the StP departure lounge and the still largely awful check-in process and lounge at Paris-Nord. There has never been enough space to cope with two (or three some hours) trains departing during a 61 minute period. The lounge was expanded some years ago but is still not a nice place to be. I always feel sorry for the ES and shop staff who work up there.

 

[edwin_m]

There most certainly is a M&S food at St Pancras. Before M&S made its comeback to Paris a few years ago, I used the St Pancras shop as my purveyor of last-minute British delicacies when going back home!

It's right next to the E* check-in and seems to do good business with arriving and departing French and Belgians. There's another one, larger and less crowded, at the very north end at ground level.

 

[SHD]

It's right next to the E* check-in and seems to do good business with arriving and departing French and Belgians. There's another one, larger and less crowded, at the very north end at ground level.

Indeed. The popularity of M&S Food with departing French and Belgians probably reflects on the fact that cheddar is the single most popular cheese in the world!

 

[anme]

ES's passenger volumes continue to grow. That wouldn't be happening if the service really was as bad as some of the commentators here describe it. The security and compulsory reservations stuff just comes with the tunnel, not much to be done there. The biggest drawback IMHO is the cramped nature of the StP departure lounge and the still largely awful check-in process and lounge at Paris-Nord. There has never been enough space to cope with two (or three some hours) trains departing during a 61 minute period. The lounge was expanded some years ago but is still not a nice place to be. I always feel sorry for the ES and shop staff who work up there.

Yes, the level of moaning about Eurostar here always amuses me. Many seem to expect the Orient Express for the price of a trip to Clacton.

One can think of things to whinge about - the lounges are not great (although St Pancras now has a Pret a Manger), the catering on the train is overpriced and disappointing (all Belgian beer has been dropped!), I'd like fares to be cheaper too (but I'd like that for all goods and services I buy), seats don't line up with windows (but that's true on most modern trains). But overall it's a pretty good way to get between London, Paris and Brussels.

Don't like it? Enjoy your trip to Heathrow!

 

[Will Mitchell]

I think there are some valid criticisms here. My recent experiences on ES (all in standard premier) have not been great. On one recent E320 service to Paris, there was only one working toilet and it was in a right state. The staff (who are generally quite helpful I find) just shrugged their shoulders and said this is what the new trains are like. I was quite shocked. I agree that the departure lounges at St Pancras and Paris Nord are not fit for purpose and the security checks are an inconvenience almost on a par with those at airports. Why is there a difference between the security checks for the shuttle and those for ES? Can the (less stringent?) more discreet checks for the shuttle not be replicated for ES? Furthermore I have found the security staff at St Pancras to be very rude and unhelpful.

As for the E320s, they are not a patch on the 373s in my view. It seems that ES have looked to Ryanair for inspiration when it comes to interior design. The whole thing just feels cheap and nasty and many carraige interiors are showing signs of age already. Gone too is the hushed serenity of the 373s which, even at speed, were a thorougly civilised place to be. It’s another example I’m afraid of rail travel going backwards and eating itself out of sheer complacency.

 

[SHD]

As for the E320s, they are not a patch on the 373s in my view. It seems that ES have looked to Ryanair for inspiration when it comes to interior design. The whole thing just feels cheap and nasty and many carraige interiors are showing signs of age already. Gone too is the hushed serenity of the 373s which, even at speed, were a thorougly civilised place to be. It’s another example I’m afraid of rail travel going backwards and eating itself out of sheer complacency.

Oh, I totally agree with your appreciation of the hushed serenity of Class 373s. And it was most certainly not uniquely due to interior fittings and materials.

 

[anme]

I think there are some valid criticisms here. My recent experiences on ES (all in standard premier) have not been great. On one recent E320 service to Paris, there was only one working toilet and it was in a right state. The staff (who are generally quite helpful I find) just shrugged their shoulders and said this is what the new trains are like. I was quite shocked.

There was one working toilet on an 18 coach train? Really?

I agree that the departure lounges at St Pancras and Paris Nord are not fit for purpose

Certainly the lounges could be better, but how are they not fit for purpose?

and the security checks are an inconvenience almost on a par with those at airports.

There is the big difference that you can take liquids on to the Eurostar. At St Pancras you also don't have to remove laptops from bags. Anyway, what can be done?

Why is there a difference between the security checks for the shuttle and those for ES? Can the (less stringent?) more discreet checks for the shuttle not be replicated for ES?

On this point I agree. Why are cars not dismantled to check their cavities before they are allowed on the train? No matter how many people they maim and kill, we treat car drivers like special snowflakes who must not be inconvenienced or held accountable for their actions in any way.

BTW if you want to see inconvenient security checks, take a bus through the tunnel.

As for the E320s, they are not a patch on the 373s in my view. It seems that ES have looked to Ryanair for inspiration when it comes to interior design. The whole thing just feels cheap and nasty and many carraige interiors are showing signs of age already. Gone too is the hushed serenity of the 373s which, even at speed, were a thorougly civilised place to be. It’s another example I’m afraid of rail travel going backwards and eating itself out of sheer complacency.

I am a regular user of the Eurostar and I really don't recognise the problems people here claim to have with the new trains.

 

[Meerkat]

Why are cars not dismantled to check their cavities before they are allowed on the train?

I am no terrorist but I reckon I could do a lot more damage on a Eurostar than I could on the shuttle.
You could possibly damage the tunnel more with a really big car bomb, but I am guessing they have checks you don’t notice for making sure you don’t have one of those, and you wouldn’t kill that many people (which unfortunately is the big headline grabber). Gun and bomb on a ES train and you are really going to make headlines.