Haymarket to Wainfleet Problems (Zero Excess & Delay Repay)

[Esker-pades]

I'm travelling from Haymarket to Thorpe Culvert and returning. Because of the very sparse service at Thorpe Culvert, I am going to Wainfleet and walking from there.

I bought advances for the Haymarket to Grantham parts, and then an off peak day return from Grantham to Thorpe Culvert, stupidly forgetting that Wainfleet was further on than Thorpe.

I asked the ticket office at Haymarket for an excess to Wainfleet, but despite being very helpful, he said he couldn't excess the ticket because there was no difference in price. He told me to speak to the guard.

My journey to Grantham was delayed, giving me nearly an hour there, so I tried to get a more concrete form of approval at the Grantham ticket office. (I know the phrase "but the man at the ticket office said I could" holds sod all credibility.) Having explained the situation at the ticket office, the person tried to sell me an additional Thorpe Culvert to Wainfleet single. This would be invalid as the train I was getting to Wainfleet does not stop at Thorpe Culvert. I questioned this, and the person cancelled the transaction and told me to speak to the guard.

I don't know what the guard will say as I am still waiting for my train.

Surely excessing a zero fare should be possible, even if it just stamping an endorsement on the back of the ticket? Are there any rules that govern the issue of zero-fare excesses (other than "speak to the guard" and "computer says no")?

More importantly, if I didn't have a reasonable knowledge of the fare system, I would have been sold an invalid ticket by the person at Grantham. I also point to a phrase used which was "if you get a good guard, he'll let you on". What happens if I get a "bad" guard?

 

[yorkie]

Surely excessing a zero fare should be possible, even if it just stamping an endorsement on the back of the ticket? Are there any rules that govern the issue of zero-fare excesses (other than "speak to the guard" and "computer says no")?

Some TOCs may require a form to be completed for any zero fare transactions (which staff may be reluctant to complete), or they may have a policy stating not to issue them. I think XC had/have a policy of not issuing them.

I would have been sold an invalid ticket by the person at Grantham.

I doubt the Guard would be bothered that the train didn't call at the station concerned, but of course it's difficult to predict how one may react.

I also point to a phrase used which was "if you get a good guard, he'll let you on". What happens if I get a "bad" guard?

If you get a "bad" Guard they might charge you a single from the last station the train called at, but I think that's highly unlikely.

 

[Wallsendmag]

LNER (at least Pricing dept and Retail Systems ) have no problem whatsoever with zero X/S

 

[RJ]

No issues where I am either - the mind boggles as to why some places have a problem with issuing them.

 

[Esker-pades]

Update:

I spoke to the guard before boarding and explained the situation. He was happy to let me travel on to Wainfleet without paying anything extra.

I'll read the replies later, probably on the train back north from Grantham.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No issues where I am either - the mind boggles as to why some places have a problem with issuing them.

It's a cultural issue that goes right back to BR days and beyond. I have certainly never successfully obtained one and have tried a few times. They are all the more important now revenue protection is much stricter.

 

[Esker-pades]

LNER (at least Pricing dept and Retail Systems ) have no problem whatsoever with zero X/S

Apparently not at Grantham.

 

[Esker-pades]

Some TOCs may require a form to be completed for any zero fare transactions (which staff may be reluctant to complete), or they may have a policy stating not to issue them. I think XC had/have a policy of not issuing them.

I doubt the Guard would be bothered that the train didn't call at the station concerned, but of course it's difficult to predict how one may react.

If you get a "bad" Guard they might charge you a single from the last station the train called at, but I think that's highly unlikely.

Thank you for the information.

I agree that guards are usually reasonably lenient, especially when such short distances and low costs involved. It's the "what if I get one who isn't" situation that gets me.

Sometimes, I wish there was a formal and universal application of rules, but then that may have the unintended consequence of removing some flexibilities that exist at the moment.

 

[Belperpete]

I have had the same "speak to the guard" response in the past when asking for a Derby to Belper excess. However, that was in the days before the MML became subject to Penalty Fares. Not had to ask since, as nowadays I always get a ticket to/from Belper even if starting/ending at Derby.

 

[Esker-pades]

What do I do about delay repay?

My journey from Haymarket to Wainfleet was delayed by 58 minutes (missed connection at Grantham due to speed restrictions). Even though I tried to obtain one, I don't technically have valid tickets for that full journey. What should I do?

 

[Belperpete]

What do I do about delay repay?

My journey from Haymarket to Wainfleet was delayed by 58 minutes (missed connection at Grantham due to speed restrictions). Even though I tried to obtain one, I don't technically have valid tickets for that full journey. What should I do?

Even though you bought two tickets for Haymarket to Thorpe Culvert, under the NCoC that still counts as one journey. So unless you were delayed between Thorpe Culvert and Wainfleet you shouldn't have a problem. Having said that, some TOCs refuse to accept two tickets as one journey for their enhanced delay-repay schemes, but you should still be entitled to the basic compensation laid down in the NCoC (which unfortunately only kicks-in with an hour or more delay). But the basic rule applies, if you don't claim in the first place you will get nothing, if you do claim you may get a discretionary payment even if strictly speaking your claim is invalid.

 

[Bungle965]

It's a cultural issue that goes right back to BR days and beyond. I have certainly never successfully obtained one and have tried a few times. They are all the more important now revenue protection is much stricter.

No issues where I am either - the mind boggles as to why some places have a problem with issuing them.

From what I remember being told it's that there is a problem when it comes up in the accounts, I was told many moons ago however.
Virgin has had no trouble issuing it me however.
Sam

 

[Esker-pades]

Even though you bought two tickets for Haymarket to Thorpe Culvert, under the NCoC that still counts as one journey. So unless you were delayed between Thorpe Culvert and Wainfleet you shouldn't have a problem. Having said that, some TOCs refuse to accept two tickets as one journey for their enhanced delay-repay schemes, but you should still be entitled to the basic compensation laid down in the NCoC (which unfortunately only kicks-in with an hour or more delay). But the basic rule applies, if you don't claim in the first place you will get nothing, if you do claim you may get a discretionary payment even if strictly speaking your claim is invalid.

But the outbound train did not stop at Thorpe Culvert (it has a very limited service). If my journey was to Thorpe Culvert, I would not have been delayed (because the service frequency is so sparse).

I am aware of split ticket delay repay. I've had to jump through all sorts of hoops before.

 

[Belperpete]

But the outbound train did not stop at Thorpe Culvert (it has a very limited service). If my journey was to Thorpe Culvert, I would not have been delayed (because the service frequency is so sparse).

Apologies, I did not realise that. Please let us know the results of your claim.

 

[Esker-pades]

Apologies, I did not realise that. Please let us know the results of your claim.

No problem. I haven't yet made a claim because I know Haymarket to Wainfleet with tickets that don't cover the full length won't work.

 

[185143]

I'd be inclined to email and explain the situation with regards to delay repay.

Virgin at Stafford had no issue giving me a zero fare excess for travel south of London when I bought the wrong ticket from Runcorn, so it can be done!

 

[Esker-pades]

I claimed for a Haymarket to Boston delay repay.

It was rejected on the grounds that I used two tickets and LNER do not pay out for any split-tickets.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I claimed for a Haymarket to Boston delay repay.

It was rejected on the grounds that I used two tickets and LNER do not pay out for any split-tickets.

Is this recent or historic?

They are wrong either way (the NRCoT, and the NRCoC before it, have been in the passenger's favour since privatisation).

 

[Esker-pades]

Is this recent or historic?

They are wrong either way (the NRCoT, and the NRCoC before it, have been in the passenger's favour since privatisation).

Rejected about an hour ago.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Rejected about an hour ago.

Well, do you feel it justifies a new thread or would you like to continue on this one?

Escalate the matter further internally. I believe we also have some known contacts within LNER who may be able to sort things out.

If all else fails, you can try and proceed with a chargeback (partial, where appropriate) if you used a card to pay for the transaction (or a S75 claim if the tickets were worth £100 or more and you used a credit card). Alternatively it's the Rail Ombudsman (who I have serious doubts about), or the County Court (of England and Wales).

 

[Esker-pades]

Well, do you feel it justifies a new thread or would you like to continue on this one?

Escalate the matter further internally. I believe we also have some known contacts within LNER who may be able to sort things out.

If all else fails, you can try and proceed with a chargeback (partial, where appropriate) if you used a card to pay for the transaction (or a S75 claim if the tickets were worth £100 or more and you used a credit card). Alternatively it's the Rail Ombudsman (who I have serious doubts about), or the County Court (of England and Wales).

I'm happy to continue on this thread.

Which parts of the conditions of carriage (and any other bits) should I cite in my response?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I'm happy to continue on this thread.

Which parts of the conditions of carriage (and any other bits) should I cite in my response?

Condition 14.1 gives you the right to be considered to be making one journey even if you use a combination of tickets.

Condition 33.1 details the procedure for claiming compensation under the "industry arrangements" (i.e. delay compensation). This talks about the delay to "your journey", and the delay in reaching your "destination station", not "the station printed on your ticket".

It would therefore be nonsensical of LNER to suggest that, despite them explicitly granting you the right to be considered to be making one journey, and despite the delay to "your journey" being the material question, they do not owe you the appropriate amount of delay compensation.

Their Passenger's Charter similarly doesn't contain any hint of a suggestion that they don't pay delay compensation on all tickets, where a combination of tickets is used.

I doubt you'll get much more out of the "ordinary" people who handle most of the cases, TBH, so don't be surprised if you get another silly response back.

Just for the sake of giving us all a hearty laugh, it would be interesting to see exactly what they said in response to your claim already.

 

[robbeech]

It’s also important that we refer to the National Rail Conditions of Travel and not to call it the conditions of Carriage still.
Even though (slightly off topic) TPE still refer to it as the Conditions of Carriage on their easily updateable electronic screens.

It’s not the first time LNER have rejected claims like this. I believe they have been told internally about this and this should not continue to happen so it’s a worry (though sadly not a surprise) that it has been ignored by at least one member of staff.

 

[yorkie]

I claimed for a Haymarket to Boston delay repay.

It was rejected on the grounds that I used two tickets and LNER do not pay out for any split-tickets.

It's the usual nonsense from that clueless department of LNER.

You need to contact Mike Ross, see:

...I then wrote to David Horne and Mike Ross, citing use of 'a combination of tickets in accordance with Section 14.1 of The National Conditions Of Travel' and suggesting amendments to The Passengers' Charter and web form for the benefit of claims involving combinations of tickets.. In due course, Mike Ross upheld my claim and it was correctly settled.

While the email included fulsome apologies and assurance that '...your comments will be passed to the appropriate managers of each department involved in your case, to ensure action is taken in regards to the people involved in the handling of your communications, including any necessary retraining that may be required', no reference was made to the specific issue of Split Tickets.

It may be that retraining involves no more than checking that trains have actually run before suggesting passengers should have taken them.

Email: Mike.Ross@lner.co.uk

Don't give up.

I'm not sure if LNER's HQ has any sort of control over the poor behaviour of the department that deals with Delay Repay claims, but hopefully once enough people have complained, they may eventually be able to get a grip.

I won't hold my breath though...

 

[Esker-pades]

Condition 14.1 gives you the right to be considered to be making one journey even if you use a combination of tickets.

Condition 33.1 details the procedure for claiming compensation under the "industry arrangements" (i.e. delay compensation). This talks about the delay to "your journey", and the delay in reaching your "destination station", not "the station printed on your ticket".

It would therefore be nonsensical of LNER to suggest that, despite them explicitly granting you the right to be considered to be making one journey, and despite the delay to "your journey" being the material question, they do not owe you the appropriate amount of delay compensation.

Their Passenger's Charter similarly doesn't contain any hint of a suggestion that they don't pay delay compensation on all tickets, where a combination of tickets is used.

I doubt you'll get much more out of the "ordinary" people who handle most of the cases, TBH, so don't be surprised if you get another silly response back.

Just for the sake of giving us all a hearty laugh, it would be interesting to see exactly what they said in response to your claim already.

I have responded to LNER citing the parts of the NRCoT that you have mentioned.

It's the usual nonsense from that clueless department of LNER.

You need to contact Mike Ross, see:

Email: Mike.Ross@lner.co.uk

Don't give up.

I'm not sure if LNER's HQ has any sort of control over the poor behaviour of the department that deals with Delay Repay claims, but hopefully once enough people have complained, they may eventually be able to get a grip.

I won't hold my breath though...

I've already sent an e-mail back to the customer relations department before I saw your comment. If they don't overturn the decision (as is expected), I'll e-mail Mike Ross as you have advised. Thanks very much.



For a laugh, see this paragraph of the e-mail I received:

We understand that you may disappointed with this decision, but we have to follow our policies at all times to ensure fairness amongst all our customers.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

For a laugh, see this paragraph of the e-mail I received:

In other words, "we're sorry we're incompetent and stingy, but at least were consistent in being involvement and stingy"

 

[Esker-pades]

From my latest response:

From the NRCofT

14.1 Unless shown below, you may use a combination of two or more Tickets to make a journey provided that the train services you use call at the station(s) where you change from one Ticket to another


The above means that your jouney from Haymarket to Thorpe Culvert cannot be made using the same train. The only way that you can be compensated for a delay is by having one ticket which states that you are travelling from Haymarket to Thorpe Calvet.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

From my latest response:

*Shakes head*

Are they really suggesting that any station to station combination that can't be done on a through train is not considered one journey?

It's also not clear which part of that they think you didn't comply with. The services you used (presumably) called at all splitting locations, so what's the problem?

 

[Esker-pades]

*Shakes head*

Are they really suggesting that any station to station combination that can't be done on a through train is not considered one journey?

It's also not clear which part of that they think you didn't comply with. The services you used (presumably) called at all splitting locations, so what's the problem?

I only split at Grantham, where I changed trains. I told them all this at the start.

It's time to escalate this to Mr. Mike Ross.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I only split at Grantham, where I changed trains. I told them all this at the start.

It's time to escalate this to Mr. Mike Ross.

I think so!